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Synthesist Summoner. When fused with the eidolon the summoner gains the physical ability scores of the eidolon. My question is basically, does the eidolon's CON bonus get counted 'twice.' I've tried to research this in all the rules and faqs I can find, but don't find any rule that prevents what seems like counting the bonus twice. I'll give the most straight forward example that I can, using a 1st level summoner and using PFS rules for calculating hit points. Assume the summoner has a CON of 10 and the eidolon has a CON of 13. If the summoner takes the favored class bonus HP he should have 9 HP total at 1st level (d8 = 8 + 1 fc bonus + 0 CON bonus = 9). The eidolon would have 6 HP total (1/2 d10 = 5 + 1 CON bonus = 6). When fused the summoner should have 9+6=15 HP (with 6 of them being temp hp). However since the fused life form now has a 13 CON (no longer 10) shouldn't it's non-temp HP total now be 10 (8+1+1)? Making the fused total 10+6 temp. I realize the 1 HP difference at 1st level seems trivial, but at higher levels with buff spells and magic items and evolution points it just seems like being able to count the CON bonus twice is wrong, but the rules seem to allow it?
Well synthisist summoners are broken anyway, but yep rules as worded you count the eidolons con twice.
Well synthisist summoners are broken anyway, but yep rules as worded you count the eidolons con twice.
Prove it.
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Well synthisist summoners are broken anyway, but yep rules as worded you count the eidolons con twice.Prove it.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points.
so your con becomes the eidolons con for determining YOUR hit points. then it use its con to determine ITS hp that it grants you as temp HP.
completely legit. Whats the issue?
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completely legit. Whats the issue?
The 'issue' for me is that you are counting this bonus twice. Nothing else comes to mind where you would get an ability bonus counted twice (except maybe on a CRIT). It just seems a little cheesy to me, but I can't see in the rules where it's 'wrong.' As Stubs points out though, it may be a self correcting problem when(if) the player takes enough damage :)
Well synthisist summoners are broken anyway, but yep rules as worded you count the eidolons con twice.Prove it.While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points.
so your con becomes the eidolons con for determining YOUR hit points. then it use its con to determine ITS hp that it grants you as temp HP.
completely legit. Whats the issue?
I was asking him to prove that they're broken.
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I was asking him to prove that they're broken.
Gotcha. Since it's an opinion, I'm not sure it really matters in the context of a rules discussion :)
I haven't yet seen evidence that it's broken as the GM. A little annoying and pointlessly complex? Sure. I don't think I'd want to deal with that as a player, but whatever :)
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It is even a PITA for said low con synth when he falls asleep at night... he will lose con, therefore lose hps (down to his normal max). When he wakes up again, and re-fuses, his current hps stay at his "normal max", but his fused maximum adjusts upwards... thereby making it so every morning, he is "injured", until he gets hit with a healing wand a few times... annoying.
I'm not 100% sure I'm following you here. Even if you were treating it as a temporary ability increase (or decrease) as per the CRB pg 555 'In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When this bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.'
Even though this fusing would be 'temporary' in the sense that it could go away when you sleep or become unconscious, I don't really see it as being 'temporary' in the same way. When they fuse, your CON becomes the new value, if that makes sense. It's not going up or going down, it becomes that value.
Either way, when fusing the example summoner wouldn't go from 9/9 hp to 15/16 hp. He'd go from 9/9 hp to 16/16 hp.
Still hate this class. It's overly complicated and fiddly and I shouldn't have to spend this much time worrying about my PC getting his character right. It just makes it that much more difficult to spot check for errors when everything seems to work 'strangely.' I have a feeling I'll ban them from future games just for my own piece of mind :)
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That's a good point. It doesn't matter if the eidolon boosts the summoner's hit points with its con. score, because the only time a summoner's hit points would be hit directly is when the eidolon isn't present, at which point it doesn't matter.
I wouldn't worry about calculating the "fused" Summoner HP, because the only time he gets hit is when he's unfused, in which case it's irrelevant.
The hit points are relevant, because the summoner can use fused link to feed hp to the fused eidolon.
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Except that the summoner starts dying once he leaves the fused state if those hit points would have made the difference.
Or, in my case, my hit points increase when my eidolon goes away.
If you dump stat con as a summoner and over use your fused link, you are looking at an instant death scenario. If you stat con as a primary ability, you can go negative and instantly awaken when your eidolon disappears.
Well synthisist summoners are broken anyway, but yep rules as worded you count the eidolons con twice.Prove it.
I made a synthesis summoner for a 14th level PFS module in about 30 minutes on hero lab the night before. It had an AC hovering in the mid to high 40s and did over 300 points in a round with pounce with self buffs only. If that wasn't bad enough it still had all the summons (not at the same time obviously), full caster level, and over 200 hp counting temps. Oh it could fly and I'm pretty sure it had DR. If you can name any other class or build that could reliably do anything close to that I'd like to hear it.
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I could start with a paladin.
Much higher DPR while smitting, just as good defense, and self heals as a swift action.
The paladin also receives a highly relevant spell list, one much more likely to see usage in combat.
Barbarian / Dragon Disciple; I too can pounce, fly, and exceed your damage.
Then there is Druid, wildshape + companion, yes, I can fly. As a side benefit, I am a full caster and can use my summons while shifted.
I could start with a paladin.
Much higher DPR while smitting, just as good defense, and self heals as a swift action.
The paladin also receives a highly relevant spell list, one much more likely to see usage in combat.
Barbarian / Dragon Disciple; I too can pounce, fly, and exceed your damage.
Then there is Druid, wildshape + companion, yes, I can fly. As a side benefit, I am a full caster and can use my summons while shifted.
The paladin has a limited uses of it's abilities, has trouble with non-evil creatures, and can't fly or pounce(or grab and trip which I just remembered I could do). And the paladins spell list isn't all that amazing, which makes sense because paladins don't need the help.
The barb can't pounce till 12th so no you really can't fly without items at that level and his AC is much lower on average. Plus your caster level for that build is very low so spells really don't count for much, and there's no utility, which the summoners spell list has in droves.
I've see druids played at around this level and they just don't compare with damage and ac.
Also keep in mind I threw the above SS together, wile somewhat sleep deprived, in less than an hour with out taking a really good look at the class, and I bet I could have done better I had tried. Most of your suggested builds have a long history of builds for them, built my many people and discussed. Though I will admit to being raised as a power gamer by my old local living campaign (Bandit Kingdoms FTW), so that might have something to do with it.
Thp derived from a fused eidolon were an issue at my game table, too. I've decided to NOT calculate the CON-Bonus twice but instead to overrule the CON score change altogether - only with regards to thp.
An synthesist determines her own hp as normal (d8 + her own CON bonus + fav. class point (if any) and toughness (if any)) as ususal.
If summoned, the eidolon's hp are calculated ONLY counting the HD (d10 average).
So, in a fused state, the synthesist adds the eidolon's hp as thp to her own hp.
Works for us.