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Okay, you are not listening. The masterwork tool for Diplomacy is ANYTHING I CAN CONCEIVABLY COME UP WITH. Just like there's a masterwork tool for Intimidate that is just a mask.
I shell out 50gp for my masterwork clown nose (Diplomacy). It's very well made and perfect for its job! +2 Diplomacy.
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The developers have come out and said any skill may have a masterwork tool.
Here's the entry in the CRB again:
This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack.
Now then, Diplomacy is a skill, and the masterwork tool entry doesn't list any skills which are exceptions or which cannot have tools. Therefore there can definitely, by RAW be a masterwork Diplomacy tool. To say that Diplomacy is "not a tool driven skill" is ludicrous and not supported by RAW in any way.
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Yes, and Masterwork Tools are also on the equipment list and give the appropriate bonus to whichever skill you choose to apply it.
I don't understand what the problem with that is. If I want +2 to my UMD skill I get my UMD aid (usually a cheat sheet of common command words); if I want +2 to my Acrobatics I'll get some nice masterwork boots. If I want +2 to stealth I'll take a page out of Ashiel's book and get a masterwork cloak.
If I want to impress the ladies with my Diplomacy, I'll get a masterwork Diplomacy tool, maybe a hat, maybe a necklace, maybe a ring.
Your definition of tool is too narrow. Anything that helps with a skill is a tool.
Your rule is the house rule as it's not defined by text. My logic is drawn from the text.LazarX, a skill like Disable Device can't use a masterwork tool because it uses Thieves Tools instead. All skills can be improved by the masterwork tool, by RAW.
If you don't like it that's different, make a house rule.
Your logic involves ignoring part of the equipment page.
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I wouldn't expect someone to toss 50 gp and outdress a courtier. But a courtier outfit doesn't give a circumstance bonus. It's just required to not have a charisma penalty when dealing with the nobility. You need one of those plus jewellery to make it into the ball park, and the 50gp masterwork Diplomacy tool is for the +2 circumstance bonus.
It is:
A) Supported by RAW.
B) Supported by the developers.
C) Flavourful and fun (Check out this sweet ring I've got, people are so busy looking at the shiny that they don't notice how rude I am).
D) Not overpowered in any way.
I don't understand your problem with this, but if you don't like it, don't play with it. It's legal for PFS and legal for most home games.
In any case, I'm done arguing. To answer the OP, yes it stacks.
Haven't seen a mention of parade armor from the Adventurer's Armory in this debate yet. If you’re wearing a country’s parade armor, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks to influence a person from that country. Might be a nice sidestep if you can't otherwise convince your GM.
This, plus a set of fancy military medals acquired from the local pawn shop, and my character was rocking his Diplomacy with the Extremely Fashionable trait!
Just throwing a bone from the table for all you debating dogs to gnaw on. =-)
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Hey there all,
I think that you can come up with a masterwork tool for every skill, if you give it some thought. Here are some examples I came up with on the fly...
Spellcraft - A tome containing a myriad of sample spell effects and guides for identifying them.
Diplomacy - A pleasant perfume or situationally appropriate attire.
Bluff - Bribes or an appropriate distraction. This one is actually pretty tough and highly dependent on the situation.
Use Magic Device - A guide of common magic phrases and activation techniques.So.. I am not really in favor of limiting this option, but I think that a GM is well within his right to limit abuses of this particular rule.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I usually find myself agreeing with you Lazar even when you disagree with me :) but I have to say, in this instance it seems like your argument boils down to
"I don't think diplomacy needs another +2 so this rule doesn't work".. when the rule clearly says that it works, and even the Dev's have come out to say that it works.
Diplomacy is a skill. You should be able to buy a bonus to it just like you can any other skill -say tracking (which has that silly little book) or whatnot.
There is also the fact that everyone here is assuming that you want fancier and fancier stuff for it to work.
The key is to have the right tool for the job. Dressing up like a princess likely won't gain you any diplomacy points if you are trying to adjust the head of the beggars guild, and what you wear to see that guy won't likely help you vs the princess.
You have to have the right tool for the job first (the appropriate clothing) and then pay for MW on top of that.
So If you Are going to see the Crown, Courtiers outfit (to not take a penalty) + MW cost (to get the +2).
Wanting to use that same MW to get a +2 for the beggars guild would, imo, depend on exactly what the item was.
But just saying "you can't do that because I want diplo to not get a +2" is just ignoring the rule because you don't like it.
Fine for home games, but not so much for a discussion about the Rules.
-S
Hey there all,
I think that you can come up with a masterwork tool for every skill, if you give it some thought. Here are some examples I came up with on the fly...
Spellcraft - A tome containing a myriad of sample spell effects and guides for identifying them.
Diplomacy - A pleasant perfume or situationally appropriate attire.
Bluff - Bribes or an appropriate distraction. This one is actually pretty tough and highly dependent on the situation.
Use Magic Device - A guide of common magic phrases and activation techniques.So.. I am not really in favor of limiting this option, but I think that a GM is well within his right to limit abuses of this particular rule.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Kinda what I was thinking something that grant a Diplomacy bonus in one place might just as well give you a penality in another.
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Again, you still need to meet the minimum requirements for the scenario (ex Courtier's outfit and jewelery for hobnobbing with nobles) before applying a masterwork tool into the equation.
In the case of dealing with nobles, maybe the extra 50gp for "master work" means you went to the most esteemed clothier in the city, who then tailored the clothes to fit you and are considered to be the latest fashion.
Take that same outfit to go talk to the captain of the guard, or high priest of the local temple, and the bonus doesn't apply because neither of them really cares about the latest fashions. However, the captain may be impressed if you show up wearing the sigil of a highly-respected order or knights, granting that +2 bonus. (Provided it's reasonable for him to assume you came by that sigil honestly.)
Nowhere in the description of the item does it state ANYTHING about meeting various prerequisites, nor does it state that the item produced has limited effectiveness.
A masterwork tool, as written, provides a +2 circumstance bonus to a skill. Now, you're DM may decide that you take a -4 penalty to Charisma based skill checks due to showing up to a ball in a burlap sack, but you still gain the +2 bonus to diplomacy from your Masterwork Brooch REGARDLESS.
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I don't buy that. Say you're trying to convince a group of lizardfolk to let your party pass through their swamp unmolested. I find it highly unlikely they'll be impressed by your shiny brooch.
Likewise, I don't see the aforementioned Masterwork Mask having any effect on Intimidate checks against a blind creature.
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A circumstance bonus depends on the circumstances when the skill is used.
I'm sorry you find it unlikely that they'll be impressed, but my +2 to Diplomacy Brooch says they will be, likely with the Lizardfolk understanding that the brooch signifies wealth and/or power, and that my words should be heeded.
Also, the circumstance bonus comes from using the tool for its designated purpose (i.e., I get a +2 bonus BECAUSE I'm using the tool), not from being solely used for a single, highly specific event.
Again, as the DM, you can totally say that being in the improper attire bestows a penalty to a related skill check, but my tool provides a bonus regardless. I would even consider doing something like that as a GM. You try to climb the wall with your climbing gloves (+2), but you find the wall has few grooves, and is a little slippery (-2).
Or, in a social situation, you have a big fancy pendant that signifies nobility (+2), but you're a half-orc, and everyone here is a racist (-6).
Dood here simpler: say in country A red toga are a must, granting you a + 2 bonus, now, go to country B and both toga and the color red are the most hated things with kill anyone wearing red toga on sigh, you don't get a bonus there, but a f***ing hell of a penality.
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Dood here simpler: say in country A red toga are a must, granting you a + 2 bonus, now, go to country B and both toga and the color red are the most hated things with kill anyone wearing red toga on sigh, you don't get a bonus there, but a f***ing hell of a penality.
Doesn't matter. That penalty may overwhelm the bonus, but it's still a masterwork Toga that, RAW, provides a +2 bonus to the appropriate skill check.
Does your +2 Intimidate Mask help you against blind characters?
The list of MW isn't comprehensive for a reason. We also have DMs for a reason.
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By RAW alone, a single masterwork tool provides the bonus to that skill regardless of other circumstances, the DM may, however, spin that however he sees fit.
As I said before:
So you think a Bower should have multiple MW tools depending on what part or type of bow/arrow he is working on? How about a weaponsmith? shouldn't he have different sized hammers, tongs, etc for different types of weapons? Should your resident arcane knowledge expert be forced to carry an entire library for every different situation/challenge that could possibly come up or be penalized?This is just to highlight that it could be taken to an extreme in either direction. Ask your DM is a perfectly acceptable answer i think, for RAI, but if you are just reading text, 1 tool does the job 100% of the time.
^this
Removed some posts. Don't be a jerk, please.
Removed some posts. Don't be a jerk, please.
I will take the punishment with a smile then. 8)
*expected someone else*
I believe that the problem here is what constitutes a "tool" for use with the Diplomacy skill.
Some are saying that a generic masterwork tool for any skill should cost 50 gp and weigh 1 pound, and apply in every possible "circumstance".
While others are saying that a masterwork tool for a skill could cost much more than 50 gp and could weigh several pounds, AND could only apply in a certain "circumstance".
I believe both are correct under RAW & RAI.
One would have to convince their GM that that particular tool can be used with that particular skill. The description for Tool, Masterwork DOES NOT say it applies to EVERY skill...
Tool, Masterwork: This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (IF ANY). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack.
IF ANY bolded by me.
So until Ultimate Equipment (hopefully) provides some "items" that are "tools" that can be used with Diplomacy. RAW pretty much says it is up to the individual GM as to what constitutes a "Diplomacy Tool"
Personaly, I would allow clothes to work/not work in certain circumstances, and I would allow a shiny brooch to work/not work in certain circumstances.
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I'm just wondering why any player would want such a thing as a Masterwork Tool of Diplomacy to exist.
Someone with a Diplomacy roll of about 30 can use a minute of conversation make anyone treat them as indifferent and then divulge secrets and provide dangerous aid.
A sixth-level NPC that is not very special aside from being a con artist can assume a Diplomacy skill roll of 27 = take 10 + 6 Ranks + 3 Charisma Modifier + 3 Class Skill + 3 Skill Focus (Diplomacy) + 2 Masterwork Tools
(That's without the Persuasive feat giving another +2, and without using his or her Heroic NPC Wealth by Level for a Circlet of Persuasion for another +3.)
Do we really want run-of-the-mill sixth-level NPC con artists with 50 gp for Masterwork Tools to be able to make any PC with 15 or less Charisma do their will?
PCs are immune to the attitude changing effects from skill use no amount of diplomacy can make the players be helpful to the BBEG
PCs are immune to the attitude changing effects from skill use no amount of diplomacy can make the players be helpful to the BBEG
Where do you get that? The Diplomacy skill section constantly speaks about "You...", which I interpret as players with PCs being the assumed audience, not a RAW prohibition on NPCs ever using the Diplomacy skill.
So would you in a game as a PC allow the BBEG to roll upwards of a 50 on the skill check, easily done btw and proceed to make the entire party indifferent to his actions? Or better yet he could simply forgo torture and just nicely ask for information and get it.
Also the skill reads as such.
You can change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with a successful check. The DC of this check depends on the creature’s starting attitude toward you, adjusted by its Charisma modifier.
Note the bolded.
Also the skill reads as such.
You can change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with a successful check. The DC of this check depends on the creature’s starting attitude toward you, adjusted by its Charisma modifier.
I'll change your bold to italics and bold my own word.
The Core Rulebook often seems to be written with Players, not the GM, as the intended audience. To me those quoted sentences are saying "Players should not use this on the PCs of other Players" rather than "Diplomacy is a skill that grants PCs a nearly-magic ability that NPCs do not get".
But this seems mostly irrelevant anyway, since we later read that "Using Diplomacy to influence a creature’s attitude takes 1 minute of continuous interaction." When in your campaigns have Players ever dialogued for an entire minute with an enemy to which they are hostile?
More relevant is the second section of the Diplomacy skill description, which reads
"If a creature’s attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature. This is an additional Diplomacy check, using the creature’s current attitude to determine the base DC, with one of the following modifiers."
That second quotation is consistently about "the creature" and makes no distinction between PC and NPC. And we later read that it only takes "1 or more rounds of interaction."
So I still ask... where in the rules does it prohibit an NPC from using Diplomacy to make requests of PCs?
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I usually find myself agreeing with you Lazar even when you disagree with me :) but I have to say, in this instance it seems like your argument boils down to
"I don't think diplomacy needs another +2 so this rule doesn't work".. when the rule clearly says that it works, and even the Dev's have come out to say that it works.
-S
While it's partially that, it's also what I see as a breakdown in logic.
IF a 150gp purchase of clothing won't give you a Dip bonus, why should a 50 gp item do so?
I would have to say because the rules are written that way.
If the term Non player characters is too hard to understand them i can't help you but we are derailing this thread if you want to continue this start another.
Lazer how about a book such as Mrs Manners that the character studies? Or maybe an alchemical version of a mood ring that gives the +2 through letting you have a small bit of insight into their mood when talking to them.