Also the skill reads as such.
You can change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with a successful check. The DC of this check depends on the creature’s starting attitude toward you, adjusted by its Charisma modifier.
I'll change your bold to italics and bold my own word.
The Core Rulebook often seems to be written with Players, not the GM, as the intended audience. To me those quoted sentences are saying "Players should not use this on the PCs of other Players" rather than "Diplomacy is a skill that grants PCs a nearly-magic ability that NPCs do not get".
But this seems mostly irrelevant anyway, since we later read that "Using Diplomacy to influence a creature’s attitude takes 1 minute of continuous interaction." When in your campaigns have Players ever dialogued for an entire minute with an enemy to which they are hostile?
More relevant is the second section of the Diplomacy skill description, which reads
"If a creature’s attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature. This is an additional Diplomacy check, using the creature’s current attitude to determine the base DC, with one of the following modifiers."
That second quotation is consistently about "the creature" and makes no distinction between PC and NPC. And we later read that it only takes "1 or more rounds of interaction."
So I still ask... where in the rules does it prohibit an NPC from using Diplomacy to make requests of PCs?
It prohibits it because it says "non-player" characters. This should be obvious to you...
Players are not non-players.
Sorry if I sound insulting but there really isn't any other way to look at this.
EDIT: We will even play it your way. As if the NPC was reading the rulebook. "You (the npc) can change the attitudes of NON-PLAYER characters." Oh wait... Same difference whether its read from the PC, the GM, a goblin, ANYONE who who uses "You" reads the same. And no, the monsters aren't exempt from this rule just because they are monsters.
And yes the GM can break the rule because they are a GM. But that is not how it was intended to be played. (good luck having your players stay when you force them to do things via diplomacy) You ROLEPLAY your characters interactions. If you want to force the players into something, use dominate not diplomacy. (as they can act however they want roleplaying wise to what you make the NPCs say to them)
May I ask something? Why does it matter whether or not it's a tool or clothing? Be honest.
I'm just wondering why any player would want such a thing as a Masterwork Tool of Diplomacy to exist.
Someone with a Diplomacy roll of about 30 can use a minute of conversation make anyone treat them as indifferent and then divulge secrets and provide dangerous aid.
A sixth-level NPC that is not very special aside from being a con artist can assume a Diplomacy skill roll of 27 = take 10 + 6 Ranks + 3 Charisma Modifier + 3 Class Skill + 3 Skill Focus (Diplomacy) + 2 Masterwork Tools
(That's without the Persuasive feat giving another +2, and without using his or her Heroic NPC Wealth by Level for a Circlet of Persuasion for another +3.)
Do we really want run-of-the-mill sixth-level NPC con artists with 50 gp for Masterwork Tools to be able to make any PC with 15 or less Charisma do their will?
You're aware that a level 6 npc isn't common correct?
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May I ask something? Why does it matter whether or not it's a tool or clothing? Be honest.
Methinks the idea of masterwork tools for all skills offends some players' sensibilities, so if there's a way to prohibit skills from having them, they'll take it.
Myself, I do try to say yes to my players more often than no.
I would suggest this: Absolutely allow a 50gp set of clothes (base cost 0?) to add +2 to Diplomacy.
Adding 50gp to a courtiers 150gp outfit will give you a +2 to Diplomacy... so will adding 50gp to make a monks robe masterwork...
HOWEVER! Look at the Diplomacy skill. Starting attitude!
I would have a noble treat a PC wearing masterwork adventurers clothes (or similar) in a DIFFERENT CATEGORY of starting attitude!
Have your +2, enjoy it. Buy multiple outfits if you want to fit in everywhere. This isn't a penalty, it's the DM having NPCs react realistically... it doesn't matter how NICE your adventuring outfit is, you aren't dressed like a noble!
I realize I'm commenting on a years old thread, but really, this is the correct way to do it. :D
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I would suggest this: Absolutely allow a 50gp set of clothes (base cost 0?) to add +2 to Diplomacy.
Adding 50gp to a courtiers 150gp outfit will give you a +2 to Diplomacy... so will adding 50gp to make a monks robe masterwork...
HOWEVER! Look at the Diplomacy skill. Starting attitude!
I would have a noble treat a PC wearing masterwork adventurers clothes (or similar) in a DIFFERENT CATEGORY of starting attitude!
Have your +2, enjoy it. Buy multiple outfits if you want to fit in everywhere. This isn't a penalty, it's the DM having NPCs react realistically... it doesn't matter how NICE your adventuring outfit is, you aren't dressed like a noble!
I realize I'm commenting on a years old thread, but really, this is the correct way to do it. :D
Almost 2 years actually, too bad you didn't wait until March to get the full necromantic effect on this post.
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I'm not sure where masterwork clothes are from, but if they exist, I would say they would stack with the trait.
It's called having both a courtier's outfit and the requisite jewelry to go with it. as in the equipment section of the CRB. That's to get your diplomacy rolls at par at a high society event, no bonus. The courtier's outfit keeps you from simply getting thrown out, and the jewelry keeps you from looking like an overdressed commoner.
It's one area where I don't see the ubiquitous "masterwork tool" as allowable as the proper gear already exists.
I don't even see what the problem is. Courtier's outfits are 30gp, and remove the -2 penalty on all Charisma checks with nobles. A masterwork tool specfically set to influence a noble via Diplomacy (no other skill or situation) costs 50gp for a +2 bonus. Regardless, it'll cost another 50gp on top of everything to not look like an out-of-place commoner.
As it stands, the masterwork tool is more limited in usefulness and costs more than the courtier's clothing.