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Question regarding monk flurry, since it allows them to attack and fight as if they had 2-weapon fighting, can they ignore the 2nd weapon and just flurry as if using a single weapon? i.e. at 5th level instead of +3/+3 just one attack at +5? and can they still spend a ki point to take an extra attack while doing so?
Since in 3.5 there was no associated 2-weapon fighting overhead to deal with this, it was a non issue, but now since often monks suffer greatly from accuracy and enhancement cost issues, this may make for a slightly more viable build if they can ignore that penalty especially for archtypes that specialize in a specific 2 handed weapon. Also since flurry works as 2 weapon fighting does this mean the archer monks cannot fire more than their base attack bonus as they are only using 1 weapon?
LOL hahahah
See this thread: LINK
Long story short, the answer depends on if there is a difference between the weapons being used.
Also, in the description of Flurry of Blows, see below with bold being my emphasis:
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat
Flurry of Blows is limited to using weapons that have the "monk" property listed by them in their description (A few have been added since the core rulebook). Bows are not available for flurry with a regular monk. There is an archetype (Zen Archer) that can flurry with a bow.
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See this thread: LINK
Long story short, the answer depends on if there is a difference between the weapons being used.
Ah thanks, did not see it in the PFS forums.
See this thread: LINK
Long story short, the answer depends on if there is a difference between the weapons being used.
You missed the point of the question. This is asking about whether you can just choose to give up the "off hand" attacks from flurry-as-TWF to get back the -2 to attacks that flurry normally grants.
The answer is that there's no rule support for doing so. You're either flurrying (as TWF or not is still up in the air) or not. You can choose not to take some of your attacks, but you still take the flurry penalty.
Probably.
Since the original thread was locked, I have started a new discussion thread located here: Flurry of Changes to Flurry of Blows with links back to the original thread that has been locked.
I have quoted all of SKRs and JBs statements on topic, unless I missed a couple.
Master Arminas
See this thread: LINK
Long story short, the answer depends on if there is a difference between the weapons being used.
You missed the point of the question. This is asking about whether you can just choose to give up the "off hand" attacks from flurry-as-TWF to get back the -2 to attacks that flurry normally grants.
The answer is that there's no rule support for doing so. You're either flurrying (as TWF or not is still up in the air) or not. You can choose not to take some of your attacks, but you still take the flurry penalty.
Probably.
Ah. Yes. I missed that part. That always seems to happen to me. Well, FoB is in the middle of a storm right now, and that's why this is a bit of a hot-button topic. Never mind me. I'll just go stick to some other class. c_c
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Question regarding monk flurry, since it allows them to attack and fight as if they had 2-weapon fighting, can they ignore the 2nd weapon and just flurry as if using a single weapon? i.e. at 5th level instead of +3/+3 just one attack at +5? and can they still spend a ki point to take an extra attack while doing so?
Since in 3.5 there was no associated 2-weapon fighting overhead to deal with this, it was a non issue, but now since often monks suffer greatly from accuracy and enhancement cost issues, this may make for a slightly more viable build if they can ignore that penalty especially for archtypes that specialize in a specific 2 handed weapon. Also since flurry works as 2 weapon fighting does this mean the archer monks cannot fire more than their base attack bonus as they are only using 1 weapon?
This works!
I have carefully checked the text of Flurry of Blows and incorporated clarifications from the November 2011 FAQ on Two-Weapon Fighting and the recent developer statements on Flurry of Blows.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus. ...
In the first sentence of the exact wording, the flurry of blows is described as a full-attack action. The second sentence starts with, "When doing so he may make one additional attack ... as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat." "May" means optional. The FAQ on Two-Weapon Fighting said, "The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting." and said, "You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties. " The clarification by developer Jason Bulmahn said, "have those corrections [to Two-Weapon Fighting] universally apply to everything that interacted with it." Therefore, if Flurry of Blows is not making an extra attack from a separate use of the off hand, then the Two-Weapon Fighting penalties do not apply.
The combat rules in the Full Round Actions section under "Use Special Ability" say that the character can begin a full-attack action if a special ability allows it. Flurry of Blows is a special ability that says that the monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. The Full Round Actions section does not insist that the monk must make multiple attacks during the flurry of blows. The Flurry of Blows ability does not insist that the monk must make multiple attacks during the flurry of blows. The Two-Weapon Fighting extra attack is optional.
Furthermore, the Flurry of Blows ability does not mention the -2 penalty. Instead the Monk table on level progression has a column labeled "Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus" that says -1/-1 at first level, +0/+0 at second level, +1/+1 at third level, +2/+2 at fourth level, +3/+3 at fifth level, +4/+4/-1 at sixth level, etc., which matches a full BAB with extra attack at highest bonus and a -2 penalty, exactly as if fighting with two weapons, one light, and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. The penalty of Flurry of Blows comes from the Two-Weapon Fighting rules, not directly from the Flurry of Blows ability. This perfectly matches how Jason Bulmahn said he designed it.
As for the ki point question, that works too! The multiple attack rules insist on a full-attack action; fortunately, Flurry of Blows is a full-round action. The Two-Weapon Fighting penalty does not come into play unless the extra attack is from two-weapon fighting. An extra attack granted by a Ki Pool ability does not invoke the penalty.
The reason this option was overlooked is because many players assumed that either (1) Flurry of Blows was a stand-alone ability based on Two-Weapon Fighting and its penalties existed independent of the two-weapon fighting rules, or (2) fighting with two non-natural weapons, including unarmed strike as one of those weapons, automatically incurred the two-weapon fighting penalty, or (3) Flurry of Blows always followed that convenient column of numbers in the Monk table. The clarified simpler rules for Flurry of Blows makes overlooked details more obvious.
Note that a single-attack Flurry of Blows still is a full-attack action. It cannot be made as a standard action nor as an attack of opportunity.
And additional clarification on the relation between Flurry of Blows and Two-Weapon Fighting may change the answer.
As for the Zen Archer question, technically, because a bow is a single two-handed weapon, the zen archer cannot receive an extra attack with it via two-weapon fighting. The zen archer's modified flurry grants the bow an exception for being ranged, which is strange because a thrown weapon, a sling, and a one-handed crossbow never needed such an exception. I have long assumed that that was a syntax error and the exception was meant to be for the bow being a single two-handed weapon. Given that we are receiving further clarifications soon, I will wait to learn what the error really was.
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*Sigh* Just give the poor monk full BAB and be done with all this "sort of has full BAB...maybe" crap already. I promise, it will not break the game. Pinky swear.
*Sigh* Just give the poor monk full BAB and be done with all this "sort of has full BAB...maybe" crap already. I promise, it will not break the game. Pinky swear.
The monk has 3/4 BAB because like the bard, cleric, magus, and rogue it is a melee combatant but not a frontline melee combatant. Yet look closely at the bard and magus: at first level with their BAB +0 the bard gets Inspire Courage +1 and the magus gets Arcane Pool +1, and at fifth level when their BAB fails to increase, the bonus from Inspire Courage and Arcane Pool increases to +2. Likewise, clerics, druids, and oracles get buff spells, though those do not scale as precisely. Giving a 3/4 BAB class a hidden way to hit with full BAB is common. On the other hand, the alchemist and rogue use other methods to make up for their 3/4 BAB.
Hiding the full BAB adds flavor to the class.
The standard monk has conditional full BAB as its form of hidden full BAB. The condition is that the monk gets full BAB only while performing special attacks often associated with historical and fictional monks. The clearer Paizo makes the rules, the less hidden that full BAB becomes. At this point, it is only a polite fiction that the standard monk does not have full BAB. The non-flurry archetypes are more flavorful.
EDIT: I want to add that I agree with Bobson's comment below. Having a vanilla Flurry of Blows for the sole sake of a full BAB is the wrong flavor for the monk. The developers should eliminate this new option. Perhaps the rules should be that the monk must take the extra attack during the flurry. Since the monk has Improved Unarmed Strike, he is always equipped for the second attack, except when the target is out of melee reach, as with a ranged flurry with shuriken, or was dropped by the first attack. The details grow complicated.
Question regarding monk flurry, since it allows them to attack and fight as if they had 2-weapon fighting, can they ignore the 2nd weapon and just flurry as if using a single weapon? i.e. at 5th level instead of +3/+3 just one attack at +5? and can they still spend a ki point to take an extra attack while doing so?
Since in 3.5 there was no associated 2-weapon fighting overhead to deal with this, it was a non issue, but now since often monks suffer greatly from accuracy and enhancement cost issues, this may make for a slightly more viable build if they can ignore that penalty especially for archtypes that specialize in a specific 2 handed weapon. Also since flurry works as 2 weapon fighting does this mean the archer monks cannot fire more than their base attack bonus as they are only using 1 weapon?
This works!
I have carefully checked the text of Flurry of Blows and incorporated clarifications from the November 2011 FAQ on Two-Weapon Fighting and the recent developer statements on Flurry of Blows.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus. ...In the first sentence of the exact wording, the flurry of blows is described as a full-attack action. The second sentence starts with, "When doing so he may make one additional...
I firmly believe this is not at all intended, but I think it's a great writeup of why it's possible under the current proposed revision. I'll FAQ it to hopefully bring it to Sean/Jason's attention.
Seriously? You want to give a class stupid and confusing mechanics that make it work badly for flavour?
Hiding the full BAB adds flavor to the class.
So the bard and magus and inquisitor should all be full BAB classes because they all have "hidden" full BAB, along with the monk?
Where does the bard get hidden full BAB? I know the magus and inquisitor less well so maybe they do have exceptions, but I can't think of a bard ability that allows them to treat their bab as equal to their class level.
Just curious.
WRT monk and full BAB vs 3/4... what puzzles me is I recall the developers saying that they kept monk at 3/4 BAB so as to ease backwards compatibility, because monk was 3/4 BAB in 3.5. But as 3.0 monk was not, I wonder if it was so revolutionary to have to make everyone recalc attack bonuses. I understand the thought behind it but I wonder if it really "helped" with backwards compatibility. Bigger changes that affect conversion got in easily (skills for one... and I'm glad for all the changes to skills, personally, even if it does make conversion tricky sometimes).
I am also just with keeping the monk at 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, but in that case, I think the monk's combat specialty needs to be streamlined and simplified, and focus should be added to his ki abilities and skills (which some archetypes do achieve).
It's here:Where does the bard get hidden full BAB? I know the magus and inquisitor less well so maybe they do have exceptions, but I can't think of a bard ability that allows them to treat their bab as equal to their class level.
Just curious.
Yet look closely at the bard and magus: at first level with their BAB +0 the bard gets Inspire Courage +1 and the magus gets Arcane Pool +1, and at fifth level when their BAB fails to increase, the bonus from Inspire Courage and Arcane Pool increases to +2. Likewise, clerics, druids, and oracles get buff spells, though those do not scale as precisely. Giving a 3/4 BAB class a hidden way to hit with full BAB is common. On the other hand, the alchemist and rogue use other methods to make up for their 3/4 BAB.
Hiding the full BAB adds flavor to the class.
Most martial-friendly classes get a scaling + to hit. Fighters get weapon training, Barbarians get better and more rages, Rangers get favored enemy, Paladins get smite evil (not exactly scaling per level to hit, but most will probably invest in a little charisma along the way), Cavaliers get Banner. In fact, the only BAB 20 class that I can see that doesn't get a free + to hit somewhere along the way is gunslingers, and that's because they can use ranged touch attacks to resolve their attack rolls.
I do not, in any way, see 3/4 BAB classes with a scaling + to hit as actually having a hidden full BAB, they just have options to fill out combat roles better.
The monk's option involves taking a full attack action and actually gaining a full BAB. In a cruel twist the monk must also accept an automatic -2 for theses attacks. Sure, its a lot of hits, but it is a great loss of versatility that many other classes get.
EDIT: I changed the format a bit and added some things at the end
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I am currently playing a monk in jade regent (trip focused) and DM for one in shackled city (psychic fist) both are the party's front line and both are doing as good or better than a twf ranger at it who is full bab.
At first I was vehemently opposed to Jason and Sean on this but after more thought I actually prefer it and will enforce it at home. My monk will have to enhance both ends of his staff is all that really changes.
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I keep seeing Netherek post and thinking I've said something lol.
I don't play PFS, as much as I think a regular game on a big scale like that would be. I roll homebrew and if it makes sense we keep it, if we don't like it we ditch it. We've pretty much thrown away attacks of opportunity. If a guy runs by your "threatened square", but you are locked in combat with someone else, are you really gonna say "Hold on a sec," and swipe at the other dude and leave yourself wide open? Doesn't make sense in some applications. The rules for a lot of things are unnecessarily complicated so we streamline and do lots of on the fly rulings just to move the game along rather than argue for 30 minutes and look up the PRD.
Where does the bard get hidden full BAB? I know the magus and inquisitor less well so maybe they do have exceptions, but I can't think of a bard ability that allows them to treat their bab as equal to their class level.
Just curious.
I was sloppy in my wording yesterday. I should not have called the compensation to BAB "hidden full BAB." Let me try to clarify the compensation concept.
We all know the classes are divided into three categories for melee combat:
- Primary full BAB combantants make up the front line;
- Secondary 3/4 BAB combatants participate in melee but lack staying power;
- 1/2 BAB noncombatants avoid melee if possible.
Pathfinder makes sure the secondary combatants are not weak in combat. Those characters will be fighting side by side with the primary combatants for a few rounds, and they need to contribute. If the the bard, cleric, druid, monk, or rogue would deal only one damge in melee for every eight damage dealt by the barbarian, fighter, paladin, or ranger, then the 3/4 BAB character would have insufficient reason to step up and risk him- or herself. That character would stand in the back with the wizard and avoid being a target.
Let's crunch some numbers in an example. A 6th-level fighter, barbarian, and cleric battle a hill giant warrior, who has AC 25 due to hide armor. The Str 18 fighter with Weapon Focus and Weapon Training in his greatsword has +12 to hit, giving him a 40% chance. The Str 16 barbarian battles in a rage, giving herself a +11 to hit, a 35% chance. The cleric has no special training, no rage, a Strength bonus of +2, and a BAB of +4, which adds up to a +6 to hit, a 10% chance. Do we bemoan the uselessness of the poor 3/4 BAB cleric? Of course not. As the giant approached, he buffed up with Divine Favor and Bull's Strength to give himself an extra +4 to hit, for a 30% chance.
The 3/4 BAB classes have a way of battling in close combat almost as well as the full BAB classes, even if only temporarily and at the cost of limited resources. They compensate for the lower BAB with a built-in trick. That is what I meant by "hidden full BAB." The cleric has buff spells. The alchemist has mutagens. The bard has Inspire Courage. The magus has Arcane Pool. The rogue has Weapon Finesse and Sneak Attack. And the monk has the least subtle of the methods: he flurries at full BAB.
Seriously? You want to give a class stupid and confusing mechanics that make it work badly for flavour?
Yes.
I would rather call the mechanics limited and conditional than stupid and confusing. And they ought to have an underlying elegance that works well for flavor.
Look at what these compensating mechanics give us. That cleric in my example could have cast Bull's Strength on his fighter friend for even more effectiveness. The bard with Inspire Courage boosts her companions along with herself. When the rogue flanks for a sneak attack, the ally on the other side of the opponent benefits, too. A lot of these mechanics encourage teamwork and enable versatility. The monk also has full BAB on combat maneuvers, so the monk could become a trip specialist. Archetypes such as Maneuver Master signifcantly aid the monk in taking clever advantage of his compensation mechanics.
Letting a monk use a full-attack action with full BAB and without Two-Weapon Fighting neither offers flavor nor encourages teamwork. It is allowed by the current interpretation of the rules, but I expect it to disappear in a correction soon and will be glad when it does.
WRT monk and full BAB vs 3/4... what puzzles me is I recall the developers saying that they kept monk at 3/4 BAB so as to ease backwards compatibility, because monk was 3/4 BAB in 3.5. But as 3.0 monk was not, I wonder if it was so revolutionary to have to make everyone recalc attack bonuses. I understand the thought behind it but I wonder if it really "helped" with backwards compatibility. Bigger changes that affect conversion got in easily (skills for one... and I'm glad for all the changes to skills, personally, even if it does make conversion tricky sometimes).
I am also just with keeping the monk at 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, but in that case, I think the monk's combat specialty needs to be streamlined and simplified, and focus should be added to his ki abilities and skills (which some archetypes do achieve).
I dug up my D&D Third Edition Player's Handbook and checked the 3.0 monk. He is 3/4 BAB with 1d8 hit die. It is worth noting that Flurry of Blows did not exist in 3.0; instead, the monk received Evasion at first level and Deflect Arrows at second. The 3.5 Flurry of Blows was the monk's first compensation mechanic. Paizo had little to work with in trying to design a proper compensation mechanic for a backwards-compatible monk. The archetypes finally gave Paizo the necessary freedom.
you must use the same weapon for all primary attacks and is counter to the spirit of monk flavor.Why must you use the same weapon for all primary attacks?
-James
It is explained in the FAQ. If a 11th-level ranger makes three attacks at +11/+6/+1 due to BAB +11, then those attacks are independent of each other. Holding a longsword in his left hand, a shortsword in his right hand, and a knee bent for an Improved Unarmed Strike, he could attack with the longsword at +11, the shortsword at +6, and an unarmed strike at +1, or the longsword at +11, +6, and +1, or shortsword at +11 and +1 with unarmed strike at +6, or 24 other combinations. Mixing attacks is useful with expendible resources, such as a pair of loaded one-hand crossbows.
The Two-Weapon Fighting rules divide the character's hands into primary hand and off hand and insist that their attacks be kept separate. What the right hand does restricts what the left hand could do and vice versa. That same ranger using Two-Weapon Fighting with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat would have +9ph/+9oh/+4ph/-1ph for his four attacks, where ph means primary hand only and oh means off hand only. He can chose the primary hand at the beginning of the full-attack action, so even if the player roleplays him as right-handed, he can chose his left hand with the longsword as his primary hand and his right hand with the shortsword as his off hand. The means he would get +9/+4/-1 with the longsword and +9 with the shortsword. Even if his shortsword is his only shocking weapon and he discovers that the exotic monster he is fighting is especially vulnerable to electricity, he must still make three of his four attacks with the longsword that round.
And the Two-Weapon Fighting rules make the false assumption that the right hand and the left hand are the only way the character can attack. So they do not mention whether the unarmed strike, which would be a kick rather than a punch, is a primary attack, an off-hand attack, or no attack. As a GM I would rule that the player must chose: the kick is either a primary attack or an off-hand attack, and then he can kick during an attack of the appropriate type. Other GMs might rule that he can attack only with the weapons in his two hands.
When a monk makes a full attack, his bab= monk level. If he uses more than one weapon, he incurs the TWF penalties as if he had TWF.
For all other attacks, a monk uses his class bab.
Boom, fixed!