Hello community!
In my game's next session my players are about to fight a manticore. I was thinking of having the beast making fly-by attacks in order to minimise the danger to itself, when the following occured to me:
a) Fly-by attacks provoke attacks of opportunity (because the attacker leaves threatened space)
b) If the AOO is succesful the attacker must succeed in DC 10 Fly check or lose 10 ft of altitude (per the fly skill), which would actually mean to avoid crash-landing as the attacker has already descended to 5 ft in order to make the fly-by attack
c) Should the fly-by attack provoke two AOOs (because, for example, there was another enemy standing beside the attack's target) and assuming that both succeed, does the attacker need to succeed twice in the DC 10 Fly check in order to avoid crash-landing?
Since, in my case, the manticore has a -3 to its Fly skill and only 17 AC, doesn't Fly-by attack seem rather dangerous?
On another subject, any idea what is the requirement for a flying beast in order to snatch and carry a small / medium target in its claws?
Thanks a lot for your insight!
you could fly-by tail spike them as they run away
a) Yes.
b) Yes.
c) Yes.
d) ;) Yes.
If we were talking about a character: scrap Fly-by as soon as you can afford (featslot-wise) to take Spring Attack (needs Dodge & Mobility).
e) Normal grapple rules, I suppose... Quick search revealed this thread. I'll look into it now.
You could give the Manticore Lunge (or some other way to gain a bit of reach). It could do the flybys without provoking then.
You'd have to give it one more HD to qualify mind you.
Regarding e) There are two possibilites:
1. the manticore can move in, use his standard action to initiate a grapple. In the next round, he can use his standard action to maintain the grapple and move up to half his speed.
2. if the manticore wants to fly-by-attack-carry-away somebody, he needs both the Fly-By Attack (or Spring Attack) feat and either the Grab special ability or the Snatch feat (he can continue his movement after initiating the grapple because he doesn't count as being grappled himself).
Good catch, EvilMinion. Gaining reach by some way is actually making fly-by attack worth its feat slot. :)
Now, now, adding Lunge to my manticore is evil... *grin*
As for upping the beastie by 1 HD... well, ok, +9 hp, +1 BAB and a +1 to one skill, most probably Perception, is nothing compared to the power of LUNGE!
In combination with concealment from Hover, I hope for a memorable encounter! (hmmm...hovering should be a Move action not Standard, right?)
BTW, is there some reason for which the manticore should not be able to target a single creature with all 4 of its spikes?
Thanks a bunch for all the help!
Sarcon wrote: you could fly-by tail spike them as they run away Hmmm... I guess I could, but what would the manticore gain by doing so?
I'd even go so far as saying that hovering does not take any action at all.
You don't move, so why should it be a move action (or worse)? Fly checks are specified as not taking an action, and you don't even roll one.
And yeah, of course a manticore can choose to attack only one target.
Hmm... You could have it hover well outside of melee reach and ready his spike burst for someone who wants to cast a spell... :)
Cyberwolf2xs wrote: I'd even go so far as saying that hovering does not take any action at all.
You don't move, so why should it be a move action (or worse)? Fly checks are specified as not taking an action, and you don't even roll one.
And yeah, of course a manticore can choose to attack only one target.
Hmm... You could have it hover well outside of melee reach and ready his spike burst for someone who wants to cast a spell... :)
Hehe... I can already hear my players complaining about how does the manticore realise such a thing as "casting a spell"! :)
I was thinking of having the beastie fly some 40 ft away from the party (diagonally not vertically), shoot its spikes then hover in place raising a cloud of debris and thus gaining full concealment. Should the target of the spikes be the party sorcerer? Well, let me tell you, after 4 attacks at +9 for 1d6+5 dmg each, there won't be much need for "readying for someone trying to cast a spell"! ;)
A manticore is a magical beast with an intelligence score of 7, "smart and social enough to bargain with or bully evil humanoids into alliances or offering tribute, and more powerful creatures may hire or bribe [it] to guard or patrol a place or area." and originally a magical creation.
So, chance has it that is a actually more capable of realising stuff like that than some player characters. :D
Your tactic sounds nice... Btw, Fly-by does not specify that is has to bee a melee attack, so depending on how fast you rule that dust and debris cloud to settle down, you could have the manticore fly out of the cloud, shoot spikes and then move back in and continue hovering...
Please report back when you ran the encounter. I'm exitedly waiting to read how it played out. :)
And I totally have to use one or two of them as an encounter myself someday. Now that I think of it... two of them. One of them creates the concealing cloud, the other one emerges to shoot or grab the PCs.
Marios wrote:
b) If the AOO is succesful the attacker must succeed in DC 10 Fly check or lose 10 ft of altitude (per the fly skill), which would actually mean to avoid crash-landing as the attacker has already descended to 5 ft in order to make the fly-by attack
It might be cool if you let your PCs knock the manticore out of the sky as it flies by. Maybe toward the end of the encounter, when its going to die anyway.
Cyberwolf2xs wrote: So, chance has it that is a actually more capable of realising stuff like that than some player characters. :D They will most definitely be pissed! ;)
Cyberwolf2xs wrote: Your tactic sounds nice... Btw, Fly-by does not specify that is has to bee a melee attack, so depending on how fast you rule that dust and debris cloud to settle down, you could have the manticore fly out of the cloud, shoot spikes and then move back in and continue hovering... Since the feat description does not provide a duration I'd probably rule that the concealment effect lasts only as long as the feat is active, that is the manticore is hovering (probably there is still dust and debris flying afterwards as well, but not dense enough to provide concealment).
Still, the manticore may achieve the same result by shooting and hovering in one round then, on the next round, stop hovering, shoot again, maybe fall back a bit if necessary (since Hover seems to be free action) and hover again.
Cyberwolf2xs wrote:
Please report back when you ran the encounter. I'm exitedly waiting to read how it played out. :)
I sure will!
Did I mention that this is a night encounter, the wind created by Hover snuffs out torches and manticores have darkvision? ;)
Lakesidefantasy wrote:
It might be cool if you let your PCs knock the manticore out of the sky as it flies by. Maybe toward the end of the encounter, when its going to die anyway.
Hehe... most definitely! Assuming they actually make it, that is... ;)
Lakesidefantasy wrote:
It might be cool if you let your PCs knock the manticore out of the sky as it flies by. Maybe toward the end of the encounter, when its going to die anyway.
Did that with a dragon once. Then the DM ruled that it fell right on top of us in it's death throes. The impact killed a PC right then and there.
Marios, it totally sounds like you will have a lot of fun (and the players will have one hell of a fight, which will surely be memorable). :)
I don't know if you can both move and hover in the same round, though... but flavorwise it should work.
Cyberwolf2xs wrote: Marios, it totally sounds like you will have a lot of fun (and the players will have one hell of a fight, which will surely be memorable). :)
I don't know if you can both move and hover in the same round, though... but flavorwise it should work.
Errr... wasn't I suggesting above that Hover is a Move action and you replying that it might even be a no-action? Quoting yourself
Cyberwolf2xs wrote: I'd even go so far as saying that hovering does not take any action at all. You don't move, so why should it be a move action (or worse)? Fly checks are specified as not taking an action, and you don't even roll one. So...? If hovering does not take any action why should the manticore not be able to move and hover during the same round?
Yeah... I'm not sure. ^^ I'll quote relevant stuff.
Fly skill description wrote: Check You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver. Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed. It can also turn up to 45 degrees by sacrificing 5 feet of movement, can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees1 , and can descend at any angle at normal speed. Note that these restrictions only apply to movement taken during your current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check. Taking any action that violates these rules requires a Fly check. The difficulty of these maneuvers varies depending upon the maneuver you are attempting, as noted on the following chart.
Flying Maneuver DC
Move less than half speed and remain flying 10
Hover 15
[...]
Action: None. A Fly check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
Hover feat wrote: Benefit: A creature with this feat can halt its movement while flying, allowing it to hover without needing to make a Fly skill check. Soo...
1. A fly check is no action. It is done reactively.
2a. If you take a move action to move more than half your speed, no check is required.
2b. If you take a move action to move less than half your speed, you need to make a fly check.
2c. If you don't move, you reactively hover to prevent falling, and you need to make a fly check (as long as you don't have the hover feat).
What I deduce from that is that hovering takes no action (similar to standing in your square does not take up your move action), but it seems to be conditional... I'd say that you either hover or you move, and I'm not entirely convinced that you can do both (or switch between both states) in the same round.
Hover feat wrote: Benefit: A creature with this feat can halt its movement while flying, allowing it to hover without needing to make a Fly skill check. Hmmm... I think the above phrase solves the problem for us (bolding is mine).
The above explicitely states that a creature may fly (stated as "movement while flying") then halt its movement and hover. Therefore, it is implicitely stated that a creature may fly and hover during the same round. The only difference between having the feat or not is wether you have to succeed in a fly check in order to achieve hovering or not.
So, if a creature is able to fly then hover, I see no reason for the same creature to not be able to hover, then fly a little bit, then hover again. Note, though, that in order to fall back and still keep facing the same direction when hovering, said creature must sacrifice 20 ft of movement to turn 180o (as it can't fly backwards), then fly a bit, then sacrifice another 20 ft of movement to turn another 180o (so that it may face the same direction again).
This way, a manticore having a fly speed of 50 ft may only fall back by 10 ft during such a manouver. Or at least that's my interpretation! :)
Our session is in a few hours, so I shall soon report how it went!
I'm just wondering what the difference between "move less than half speed" and "move some way and then halt to hover" would be.
Okay, flavorwise it could be "over the course of the 6 second turn, you fly slowly, so that you have moved less than half speed" vs "you move in a quick burst of speed, then halt mid-air"... But combat-rules-wise? Either way, you actually spend a move action to move less than half speed.
And I see the check description and the dc table as saying "you're either moving normally, or less than half (dc 10), or not at all (-> hover, dc 15).
But as I said, for what it's worth, I'm totally okay with your ruling.
I just like playing the devil's advocate sometimes. :)
Regarding that fall back maneuver... Just fly upwards/downwards, as that shouldn't change your facing, right? And you only need to make one dc 20 check for flying upwards instead of two dc 20 checks for the two turns. *g*
Cyberwolf2xs wrote: I'm just wondering what the difference between "move less than half speed" and "move some way and then halt to hover" would be. Well, a possible explanation is that hover has some additional benefits, thus the increased DC.
Cyberwolf2xs wrote: Regarding that fall back maneuver... Just fly upwards/downwards, as that shouldn't change your facing, right? And you only need to make one dc 20 check for flying upwards instead of two dc 20 checks for the two turns. *g* Great idea though I'm afraid virtually impossible for the manticore (as was my original one), who is at -3 for Fly checks... :)
Oh, well, I guess that when the party tries to close, it will just fly away and come back from another angle!
Thanks a lot for all the useful ideas!
So... How did it play out?
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