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I have a question regarding qualifying for feats. I have searched the forums, but can't find anything clear.
I am trying to build a Alchemist/Master Chymist and am thinking about taking the following feats:
Eldritch Claws: Prerequisites: Str 15, natural weapons, base attack bonus +6.
Improved Natural attack: Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
The character will meet the basic prerequisites for Str and base attack, but does the usage of feral mutagen allow you to qualify for "natural attacks prereq?
I was also thinking of taking improved natural armor a couple of times.
Is this allowable?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I have a question regarding qualifying for feats. I have searched the forums, but can't find anything clear.
I am trying to build a Alchemist/Master Chymist and am thinking about taking the following feats:
Eldritch Claws: Prerequisites: Str 15, natural weapons, base attack bonus +6.
Improved Natural attack: Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
The character will meet the basic prerequisites for Str and base attack, but does the usage of feral mutagen allow you to qualify for "natural attacks prereq?
I was also thinking of taking improved natural armor a couple of times.
Is this allowable?
Yes, even if it's only a temporary thing, having the claws counts for feat prereqs requiring natural weapons.
Actually i believe you need to have something permantly to qualify just like a barbarian with a 10 str cant take power attack based off the fact he can rage and have a 14.
I have a question regarding qualifying for feats. I have searched the forums, but can't find anything clear.
I am trying to build a Alchemist/Master Chymist and am thinking about taking the following feats:
Eldritch Claws: Prerequisites: Str 15, natural weapons, base attack bonus +6.
Improved Natural attack: Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
The character will meet the basic prerequisites for Str and base attack, but does the usage of feral mutagen allow you to qualify for "natural attacks prereq?
I was also thinking of taking improved natural armor a couple of times.
Is this allowable?
The claws are a possiblity, up for debate, but I'm leaning towards no since they aren't permanent and the second part of your question.
You would not qualify for improved natural armor since you only have natural armor when using a mutagen or mutating.
You need more than *proficiency* (edited for my hamfisted spelling) to qualify for Eldritch Claws... you need actual natural attacks.
If you go up two posts on the link you provided Cheapy, you'll see that Jason feels the same way about flying feats & the fly spell and that he disagrees with Sean's stance.
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Yes, you do qualify for the natural attacks part. There's no such thing as temporary weapon proficiency.
Reference two (this one is specifically about this question)
That's not what Sean said. He said you are *proficient* in natural weapons so you can take Weapon Focus which requires proficiency. Eldrich claws requires an actual "natural attack" which the alchemist lacks. Even in that thread he talks about how you can't train fly unless you have a permanent way to fly. Sean even kind of grouses about it in that thread that he disagrees but that Bulmahn is the top dog.
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Eldritch Claws is in the APG, and intended for PC use. Aside from Half-Orc bite attacks (which would result in a different name, I would think), there are no permanent ways to gain Natural Attacks in the APG, therefore, the RAI clearly allow a Druid, or Alchemist, or Beast-totem Barbarian to acquire the Feat.
Whether RAW allow it is different question, but unless this is a PFS game, not one you should concern yourself with.
That is utterly ridiculous.
Oh well. Just play as a Changeling alchemist.
That is utterly ridiculous.
If it werent this way then you could get around all kinds of pre-requisites by obtaining temporary statistical boosts.
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Yes, you do qualify for the natural attacks part. There's no such thing as temporary weapon proficiency.
Reference two (this one is specifically about this question)
That's not what Sean said. He said you are *proficient* in natural weapons so you can take Weapon Focus which requires proficiency. Eldrich claws requires an actual "natural attack" which the alchemist lacks. Even in that thread he talks about how you can't train fly unless you have a permanent way to fly. Sean even kind of grouses about it in that thread that he disagrees but that Bulmahn is the top dog.
Can you please link to where he says you can't train fly without a permanent way to fly? Because that's insane. That would mean a witch can't take ranks in fly because she only has a fly speed for hours a day. You can train in any skill... that's how the skill system is made!
I would also like to put in my vote that the way you're interpreting the rules just can't be right... Eldritch Claws was clearly created with the Alchemist, Witch and other claw- or bite-growing PC classes in mind.
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Can you please link to where he says you can't train fly without a permanent way to fly? Because that's insane. That would mean a witch can't take ranks in fly because she only has a fly speed for hours a day. You can train in any skill... that's how the skill system is made!
It's in the same thread Cheapy linked, scroll up from his link.
I would also like to put in my vote that the way you're interpreting the rules just can't be right... Eldritch Claws was clearly created with the Alchemist, Witch and other claw- or bite-growing PC classes in mind.
Actually I argued long and hard that it should be available. The developers said otherwise.
That is utterly ridiculous.If it werent this way then you could get around all kinds of pre-requisites by obtaining temporary statistical boosts.
Temporary ability scores are an entirely different thing.
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Of course since you can't use feats for which you have lost the perquisites you would only be able to use those feats while you temporally qualify for them.That is utterly ridiculous.If it werent this way then you could get around all kinds of pre-requisites by obtaining temporary statistical boosts.
Exactly... and any feats with that "temporary" feat as a prerequisite would also only function while the prerequisite functions. The system polices itself.
Anyway, the way I'm reading the thing about fly is that if you have daily access to something, you can use it as a prerequisite, and a Sorcerer being able to use Fly each day therefore lets him take ranks in the fly skill after 5th level. In the same way, an alchemist can grow his claws every day, so he qualifies for feats that are based on having claws.
The fly skill has the following text:
"Requirement
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability)."
So, as written you can take ranks in fly if you can cast a spell each day that lets you fly. Am I not reading this right?
Temporary ability scores are an entirely different thing.
I disagree. But, lets go with a one to one comparison.
Would you allow the OP to take Improved Natural Armor knowing that the only way they qualified for it was through Mutagen? This is the exact same scenario as Eldritch Claws.
If yes, why is this any different than a temporary statistical boost?
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Temporary ability scores are an entirely different thing.I disagree. But, lets go with a one to one comparison.
Would you allow the OP to take Improved Natural Armor knowing that the only way they qualified for it was through Mutagen? This is the exact same scenario as Eldritch Claws.
If yes, why is this any different than a temporary statistical boost?
Personally, yes I would allow it, given the caveat that it would only function when he HAS a natural armor bonus, which is when his mutagen is in effect. My reasoning for this is that he can use a mutagen for minutes per day, and that to me is a "reliable" source of natural armor.
Personally, yes I would allow it, given the caveat that it would only function when he HAS a natural armor bonus, which is when his mutagen is in effect. My reasoning for this is that he can use a mutagen for minutes per day, and that to me is a "reliable" source of natural armor.
But you are now extrapolating the Fly Skill text and applying it to areas where it is not explicitly written that way.
Why would you allow a player a feat they only qualify for some of the time? I think you're opening the door pretty wide.
Improved Natural Armor is now available to any player with a wand of Barkskin?
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Personally, yes I would allow it, given the caveat that it would only function when he HAS a natural armor bonus, which is when his mutagen is in effect. My reasoning for this is that he can use a mutagen for minutes per day, and that to me is a "reliable" source of natural armor.But you are now extrapolating the Fly Skill text and applying it to areas where it is not explicitly written that way.
Why would you allow a player a feat they only qualify for some of the time? I think you're opening the door pretty wide.
Improved Natural Armor is now available to any player with a wand of Barkskin?
I suppose the difference to me is that the Alchemist is using a class feature, which he should always have access to because it's a class feature, to fulfull the requirement. A wand can be lost or stolen... a class feature cannot. So, class features are more reliable.
I realize I'm extrapolating here, but we all are in this case, until an explicit answer is given by SKR or another dev.
Well barkskin grants an enhancement bonus to natural armor, not natural armor itself and therefore would not qualify. I was reasonably sure that there was such a spell other than a polymorph effect, which I'm reasonably sure wouldn't work for an entirely different reason. I cannot seem to find such a spell. hmmmm.
Edit: I'm not saying there isn't one rather I'm saying that my drive to manually check the spell lists to see if there is one such is not sufficient.
Edit 2: Actually thinking on it the only ones that I can find off hand are spells such as transformation and frightful aspect. Hmm.. They are transmutation based and transformation doesn't have the polymorph subset so it would probably work. Never mind me.
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As I said
The Bulmahn HAS spoken about Eldritch Claws specifically.
Ogre that honestly doesn't sound like a dev ruling.
"Personally, I would say that have claws for a few rounds per day does not meet the prereqs for a feat that requires a claw attack. Just like being able to cast beast shape once per day would not grant you the prereqs. Note though that this is an off the cuff opinion. I would need to investigate further."
It sounds more like an just an opinion on how it should be run or rather how he would run it.
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As I said
The Bulmahn HAS spoken about Eldritch Claws specifically.
Only for someone who only has it for 'a few rounds a day' what about 4 hours a day? That's the minimum available to a Master Chymist.
Really, the situations aren't comparable AND that's hardly an official ruling.
As Ogre has said: there is an official stance on this. If you want to believe it or not, thats up to you. If you want something more official than the developers' opinion on the issue, that's also up to you.
Well barkskin grants an enhancement bonus to natural armor, not natural armor itself and therefore would not qualify.
Well sort of... enhancement bonuses apply to the natural armor bonus creating a total Natural Armor Bonus of X. So by casting barkskin at base level a typical PC will gain a +2 enhancement to natural armor (added to a +0 base natural armor) for a total of +2 natural armor bonus.
Same thing as the mutagen. Now if your stance is that gaining it from a class feature is different from a wand/spell/whatever well you're splitting hairs now since its a different source for the exact same result.
If you're arguing 4 hours a day is enough, Jason B is on record saying that 16 hours of Flying a day is not enough to qualify for feats that require a fly speed. That seems pretty directly comparable.
So, I really have exhausted my argument on the issue... the developers have made their official stance known on this grey area. Doesn't work. If you'd like to rule otherwise feel free, but this is the guidance we've been given. If you don't like it, thats fine too, express your opinion and perhaps the rules will change - but for the can of worms it opens up, I really doubt it.
In my opinion having an enhancement bonus is not the same thing whether or not the overall effect is a natural armor bonus.
You and I will have to disagree about whether or not barkskin will work, either way a spell does fit the criteria.
The quote doesn't say there is an official stance on this merely an "off the cuff opinion" although by your logic if you'd like to read more into because you feel you should you are welcome to do so.
Personally I think we should faq this thing up and get an official ruling on it one way or another that includes that "investigate further".
In my opinion having an enhancement bonus is not the same thing whether or not the overall effect is a natural armor bonus.
You and I will have to disagree about whether or not barkskin will work, either way a spell does fit the criteria.
I concur about your final point, that there are spells that really put a wrench in the temporarily qualifying idea.
But for your reference this is the text that describes enhancement bonuses as regards to Armor Bonuses.
A piece of armor that is enhanced (let's say a chain shirt, Armor Bonus 4) to a +1 level, it increases the total Armor Bonus provided by the Chain Shirt by 1. It does not have an armor bonus 4 and enhancment to armor bonus 1. The entire armor bonus gets bumped to 5 (to "increase the armor bonus it provides"). I had a long campaign of dueling against Paizo forumites and got the whole system mapped out to me so I'd be glad to share what I learned.
So the same principle works with enhancement to natural armor bonuses. Your natural armor bonus goes to that level after the modification.
I don't know how you get more official than "this is my opinion on the matter, but I will look into it if you think its a problem. (paraphrased)" from the lead developer of the game. I think you are reading into it more than is warranted. He's telling you he'll give it the once over, but he thinks it's fine. Not to mention that this was almost 9 months ago...
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Ogre that honestly doesn't sound like a dev ruling.
"Personally, I would say that have claws for a few rounds per day does not meet the prereqs for a feat that requires a claw attack. Just like being able to cast beast shape once per day would not grant you the prereqs. Note though that this is an off the cuff opinion. I would need to investigate further."
It sounds more like an just an opinion on how it should be run or rather how he would run it.
It's a very clearly stated opinion of how the lead developer of the game feels the rule should be interpreted. He has been consistent in the application of the rule and even though he disagrees with it, SKR considers it the official stance on the issue.
Ultimately, it's your game, run it how you want. I've said previously that I personally think it's fine (and even in that link you can see my opinion on the topic).