This agile weapon off-shoot is getting silly. If you use your DEX instead of your STR and normally you'd add half your STR, it seems clear the intent is to add half your DEX.
This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. Which also add .5 STR..
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! This makes too much sense. Stop trying to inflict consistency, logic, and common sense to game rules.
It's my tragic flaw.
This agile weapon off-shoot is getting silly. If you use your DEX instead of your STR and normally you'd add half your STR, it seems clear the intent is to add half your DEX.
This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. Which also add .5 STR..
<sarcasm>
Aha, got ya! A secondary attack from natural weapons is not an off-hand weapon.</sarcasm>
/me puts away his magnifying class and hair-splitting scalpel.
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And my real question is what does it matter whether you apply all, half or a third of your strength modifier normally?It matters because only where you apply your Strength modifier normally do you substitute your Dex modifier instead.
Do you apply your Strength modifier to secondary natural attacks? No, you don't. So Agile doesn't do anything, because Agile is only applied in place of your Strength modifier, and you don't apply your Strength modifier to secondary natural attacks.
Yes, you do apply your strength bonus to secondary attacks. You only get the benefits of half of it but you are still applying your strength bonus to it.
Have you even read the rules for natural weapons or are you just here to thread bomb ?Now Ogre, back to what I was saying;
Off Hand attack is a specific game term with it's own rules in the game and only applies to making attacks with your iterative bonus. There is no way possible to make an off hand attack with a natural weapon, the rules won't allow it.
Now with that statement since you can't ever do or get the benefits of an off hand attack why should you ever suffer the penalties for one? Nothing in the rules as written states that you should, nothing even hints at it.
Natural attacks rules are completely separate from the iterative attack rules.
Again, where are the rules that say that anyone other than a monk can kick? "Ten-foot-high jumps are amazing." Doesn't necessarily mean you can do a ten-foot-high jump (but if you could, that'd be amazing).
In the combat chapter, under the unarmed strike heading, which Abraham has pointed you to? A kick is a type of unarmed strike listed in the general rules. Anyone can kick if they choose to. Just like anyone can punch or headbutt if they choose to.
Unarmed Attacks These kinds unarmed attacks are grouped together to constitute an Unarmed Strike.
Regardless of whether or not the rules/devs do say that kicks can be extra attacks alongside natural attacks, you have not, in fact, proven anything by repeating that "kicks are unarmed strikes".
You can make unarmed strikes with your natural attacks... if your unarmed strike is a kick you can still do this.
The issue is: can you use an unarmed strike with a natural attack? Answer is Yes.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
An unarmed strike is a Weapon.
@OP
I like alchemists, and all those attacks seem to be allowed by the rules, and of course he would pick vivisectionist, why else have so many attacks?
But if the rest of the players have mediocre builds, you know, like the alchemist who's happy to throw 2-3 bombs per turn, then do not allow multiattack to be taken. Just say no, it's better then coming back in a month and ask the messageboard how to handle a powergamer in group that plays for fun.
If however you've got a witch who wants ability focus on sleep, and you allow that, then by all means allow the vivisectionist and wait to be amazed by the damage he can dish out, you should probably however adjust challenge rating upwards.
Perhaps the player has simply forgotten that optimizing to this point is not helping fun, I forget it all too often too.
Freaky Liar -- I understand why you would think what you do but you are incorrect:
...Incorrect that if this were allowed, any character could do it?
What in your post disallows a two-weapon Rogue from doing Slash/Slash/Kick/Kick? Or a rogue? Because nothing about his character makes it able to kick with TWF more than the others can.
Kicks are unarmed attacks, but nothing he did lets him use them as extra attacks.
There is a huge difference between unarmed strikes and natural attacks.
If you look what the OP is asking about is someone that is using unarmed strike and natural attacks not unarmed strike and "slash/slash" (whatever that is).
If what you mean is a rogue going "dagger/dagger/kick/kick" then my answer to you is the fact that unarmed strikes are not natural attacks. If the rogue in question had 2 claw attacks, a bite attack and as a boot blade and armor spikes then he could have the following attack routine:
Armor Spikes/Boot Blade/Bite/Claw/ClawKicks are unarmed strikes -- that is explicit in the rules.
Bringing up irrelevant rules does not prove anything. Kicks are unarmed strikes (yes, I said it too, so I must be in the right!), but where are the rules that say you can get them as extra attacks?
Again, where are the rules that say that anyone other than a monk can kick? "Ten-foot-high jumps are amazing." Doesn't necessarily mean you can do a ten-foot-high jump (but if you could, that'd be amazing).
Regardless of whether or not the rules/devs do say that kicks can be extra attacks alongside natural attacks, you have not, in fact, proven anything by repeating that "kicks are unarmed strikes".
The rest of the attacks are natural attacks which you can take with any other type of attacks.
You get the first unarmed strike as your primary attack, you take the second with your off hand attack, and then you unload all your natural attacks.
It works the same with unarmed strike as it would work with armor spikes and a boot blade.
You could simply read all the rules involved -- I've already posted them for you.
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StuffI'm sorry Mathwei but at this point you are just repeating the same assertion which no-one agrees with and frankly makes no sense. It's not even worth discussing any more.
For those style reading this then here's the assertions:
1. Are Natural Attacks considered off-hand attacks?
<my understanding>;
The off hand penalty is only ever applied when the user is using the two weapon fighting rules and those where specifically removed from natural attacks.
The natural attack rules from the Bestiary are the only penalties applied to natural attacks and nothing in there ever uses the game term off hand attack.
2. Does the Agile enchant only allow half Dex bonus to damage for secondary attacks?
<my understanding>;
a. Well first lets look at the actual text from the Agile enchant:
<my understanding>
Per the enchant itself it states it only reduces damage for off-hand attacks and since Natural Attacks are no longer considered off hand attacks this penalty shouldn't apply.
3. Do TWF penalties apply to Natural attacks if used in the same round as normal TWF?
<my understanding>;
a. The rules for TWF specifically state these penalties are only applied to weapons wielded in your primary and off-hand. Since natural attacks are neither of those things none of these penalties should apply.
4. Finally, does the Agile enchant have the user use their Dex AS their Strength score or does it ignore the Str score entirely and use the Dex score instead?
<my understanding>
Well let's look at the Agile enchant again:
The enchant itself states to use it in place of the strength score but doesn't really explain what it means.
a. Anytime you go to apply the Strength score (including any modifications to it) you can then CHOOSE to use your Dex modifier instead.
Since the secondary penalty and off hand specifically reference the strength score it shouldn't be applied to to your Dex since it is a different stat.
OR
b. Use your Dex modifier AS your strength modifier and anything that is impacting the final strength score is now is impacting the final Dex score.
This is what many of the responders of this thread believes. I disagree since everything is hinged on an interpretation of what in place means.
My main issue is after expending a feat, an important gear slot (neck) & a fist full of gold you've more then earned removing that single penalty of half dex to damage.
God, I dislike that enhancement.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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God, I dislike that enhancement.
Yeah, after reading Mathwei's last post I'm inclined to say it's entirely broken as written. It should definitely include any penalties that you usually get to your Str score, but as written it does not. In my game, it will be significantly changed as a house rule.
The Agile weapon discussion deserves its own thread. Please take further discussion there.
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@cartmanbeck (because frankly Mathwei is not making any sense to me)
A math major might express it like this:
StrBonus = (Strength Score - 10)/2
DexBonus = (Dexterity Bonus - 10)/2
Natural weapon damage = 1d6 + StrBonus/2
using DexBonus IN PLACE of StrBonus
Natural weapon damage = 1d6 + DexBonus/2
An English Major might interpret it thusly:
When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Using Dexterity bonus IN PLACE of Strength Bonus
When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Dexterity modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Someone else might read it...???
Note the simple way both examples are demonstrated without word gymnastics. Please give me a similar simple example of how you would use Dexterity Bonus in place of Strength Bonus that would make sense in light of Mathwei's reading of the rules. (for the sake of argument assume the terms bonus and modifier are interchangeable because otherwise the enhancement wouldn't work at all)
There is something about this whole premise that bothers me. (the combination of natural weapons and unarmed strikes, not the agile enhancement) If this is legal, then when monsters with natural attacks have a great attack bonus and armor class, why don't they just add an unarmed strike into their full attack? (yes, of course it would provoke an aoo, but if they are hard to hit, who cares?)
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@mabven, the reason those monsters don't do this is because it is a significant decrease in the damage that their natural attacks do. -5 to hit and only half strength to damage is alot to give up for an attack that won't do much damage (typical unarmed strike is 1D3 (1D4 if large) + strength bonus).
@mabven, the reason those monsters don't do this is because it is a significant decrease in the damage that their natural attacks do. -5 to hit and only half strength to damage is alot to give up for an attack that won't do much damage (typical unarmed strike is 1D3 (1D4 if large) + strength bonus).
Yes, but I am talking about if you have a bbeg who primarily attacks with natural attacks. Like, if you have a 1st level party, they fight their way through a bunch of kobolds, to find they are led by a troglodyte. The characters get sickened by his aura, and since he is a smart trog, he decides to attack the wizard, since most likely the melee characters can't hit him. He has no incentive not to add an attack to his routine: he is likely to hit with even the -5 penalty, and against his natural armor, and with the sickened condition, the melee characters would be lucky to hit him with a natural 19.
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And what would he get from adding that extra attack? His average damage per round will go WAY down, every fight would last longer giving the melee opponents extra chances to beat on him and letting the ranged murder him from a distance.
The point is to kill your opponents before they can kill you, nerfing yourself so they can attack you more is counter-productive.
Take your Trog for example would go from +2/+2/+2 for 1D4+1 on each attack to:
+2/-3/-3/-3/ for 1D3+1/1D4/1D4/1D4 for a net gain of +0 average damage and a serious drop in chance to hit.
It's just a bad trade for the Trog.
Ok, well why would any monster take multi-attack and weapon focus (some weapon), and use it for a manufactured weapon, when they could take multi-attack and improved unarmed strike, and instead getting weapon/claw/bite with a slight attack bonus on the weapon attack, they could do kick/claw/claw/bite?