Hydraulic Push Question

[BuzzardB]

Hey all, starting up a new game and decided to make a wizard, getting to the fun part of choosing spells and run across Hydraulic Push. here is the description of it.

Paizo wrote:

You call forth a quick blast of water that knocks over and soaks one creature or square. You can use this blast of water to make a bull rush against any one creature or object. Your CMB for this bull rush is equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest. This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Hydraulic push extinguishes any normal fires on a creature, object, or in a single 5-foot square which it is targeted against. Magical fires are unaffected.

So If I am reading this correctly then is this not a spell that I can use to knock any creature over with no save? I don't really care about the bull rush aspect all its just the first sentence.

Paizo wrote:

You call forth a quick blast of water that knocks over and soaks one creature or square.

There is nothing else to set limits to that ability, closest thing is that it says one creature or square so you COULD interpret that the creature size would be limited to one square (<=Medium)

I did a quick search on the forum and the only non bullrush related one was from 2 years ago and Ravingdork mentioned that it was probably flavor text and the monster doesn't go prone. But I read that line as the spell ability and the bullrush section starts off with CAN be used to make bull-rush.

So what say you? Awesome spell that immediately knocks over any creature or not?

[Adoke]

The first sentence seems to me to be flavor text, and the subsequent line to be read more as "this is what the spell does" as opposed to "this is what the spell may do at your choosing." Honestly, if you're reading as the "may do" version, you should think about the fact that you have to make a check to bull rush, but nothing to essentially trip. That, as a first level spell, would be unquestionably broken in my mind. As to the limit on squares, that's in reference to the soaking effect of the spell, IE you can only soak a 5-foot square. So you could use the spell on any size of creature.

However, a Magus could totally break this spell in half. Start out next to somebody, attack, combat-cast this spell, then 5-foot back. Never have a full-attack land on you. =)

[submit2me]

I agree with Adoke. If the spell was intended to knock someone prone, then it would let you make a trip maneuver and not a bull rush. It's simply a poor word choice to describe what the spell is doing. It should really say "knocks back" instead of "knocks over".

[BuzzardB]

Well I agree and it makes sense, it is a bit disappointing. Guess Ill have to go Stumble Gap instead, also seems pretty darn good.

[Stynkk]

Add me to the poor choice of words group. It does say knock over, but then provides no rule support or references to how a creature would be knocked over by the spell (which goes into great detail on the Bull Rush).

There is no game term that is defined by the phrase "knock over", it doesn't say prone or trip. So, I think you're just wishfully thinking on the power level of Hydraulic Push.

[Xexyz]

It's still an awsome spell. My sorcerer has used it to knock people into pits, through blade barriers, away from spellcasters, and toward meleers. I'm just waiting for a combat to take place on a bridge or narrow mountain path...

[DeathQuaker]

The first sentence is flavor text--all spells and special abilities tend to be written like this. There's a general description of what the spell does in terms of flavor, and then there's how it is accomplished mechanically.

Compare to, let's say, wish. "Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you." So can I alter reality by "simply speaking aloud" or do I actually pay attention to the limitations that follow? Do I insist to my GM that no, I shouldn't have to have a diamond worth 25,000 GP to cast the spell because the text says RIGHT THERE, that all I need to do is "simply speak aloud" to alter reality?

God, I hope not.

That said, yes, hydraulic push should say "knock back" and not "knock over."

I play a sorcerer and I've used that spell several times to useful effect--both for the bull rush and for just being able to soak something thoroughly with water (or both!).

[Sean Nittner]

Based off the Hydraulic Maneuver (Undine) feat, I'd agree it can only bull rush and not create the trip effect.

Benefit: You may use hydraulic push to attempt a bull rush, disarm, dirty trick (blind or dazzle), or trip combat maneuver. Each time you use hydraulic push, you must decide which of the allowed combat maneuvers you want to perform. You may use this feat with your hydraulic push racial spell-like ability, your class-granted use of hydraulic push, or any hydraulic push spells you cast, but not with magic items or other external sources that use that spell.

Normal: Hydraulic push can only be used to make a bull rush combat maneuver.

[Zhayne]

And this is why flavor text is to be ignored when determining what spells and other game elements do.