Details, Details!

[Jiggy]

Turns out picking details for a wizard is hard; at least, the first time through (haven't played one before).

I'm building a PFS character aimed at becoming an Eldritch Knight. He's currently unplayed, but at level 2 via GM credits. Here's his current stats:

Spoiler:

Human (Tien)
Fighter1/Wizard1(Foresight Subschool)

STR 17 (15+2)
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 07

Traits: Reactionary (+2 initiative), Indomitable Faith (+1 will)
Human bonus feat: Dodge

01:Fighter1:[Bonus Feat:Improved Initiative], Toughness
02:Wizard1:[Foresight Subschool][Forewarned +1][Prescience 5/day][Bonus Feat:Spell Focus]

HP 20
AC 18, or 22 with shield
Fort +3
Ref +3
Will +3

MWK Hwandudaedo +5 (1d8+3/19-20)
Mithril chain shirt
Wand of infernal healing
Wand of shield in a spring-loaded wrist sheath (for when I sense danger but haven't seen the bad guys yet)

So there are a couple of things I'm having trouble deciding:

1) What should I use for my bonded item? I get to save a little cash if I use my weapon, but then I have to have my sword out any time I want to cast a spell. A ring would certainly be simpler. What should I consider in this decision?

2) PFS wizards get Spell Focus instead of Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level. What school should I pick? I was thinking either evocation or conjuration, to support AoE's. Thoughts?

3) I've considered switching races to half-elf or half-orc, losing Dodge in favor of other racial abilities. Pros/cons?

[Sir Ophiuchus]

I'd take Combat Casting instead of Toughness for that character, considering you intend to be in combat a lot. What's your favoured class?

Will you be in combat all the time anyway? If so, sword is fine. However, it's a really easy sunder target, and losing your bonded item would suck. I suggest something else.

What sort of spells do you plan to cast? If you plan to use your spells to burn people up, evocation. If battlefield control (makes sense with the school you chose), conjuration.

What are you trying to do with your stats?

[Jiggy]

Sir Ophiuchus wrote:

I'd take Combat Casting instead of Toughness for that character, considering you intend to be in combat a lot.

I plan on my casting being either preemptive or opportunistic. If I'm in a situation where I'd need to cast defensively, I'll just hack away with my sword instead.

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What's your favoured class?

Wizard (since I'll have 5 levels of that and only 1 of fighter).

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Will you be in combat all the time anyway?

The plan is to be able to switch back and forth as needed.

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If so, sword is fine. However, it's a really easy sunder target, and losing your bonded item would suck. I suggest something else.

I hadn't thought of sundering. It doesn't happen much in PFS, but if it did, it'd suck lots. :P Ring it is.

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What sort of spells do you plan to cast? If you plan to use your spells to burn people up, evocation. If battlefield control (makes sense with the school you chose), conjuration.

On the other hand, lots of conjuration spells have useful effects even if they make their save (and sometimes don't even allow a save). Hence wondering if SF:Evoc would be better for pumping my blasts while "neglecting" conjurations whose DCs are less relevant. Thoughts on that approach?

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What are you trying to do with your stats?

At level 4 I'll have 18 STR. Shortly thereafter I buy an INT headband, and then a CON belt. So by mid levels I have 18 STR, 14 CON and 16 INT (same as my PFS fighter, interestingly enough...).

[Wolfsnap]

If you're really dead set on the eldritch knight, then that's cool. However, especially for a PFS character, I'm going to recommend you look at the Magus class from Ultimate Magic instead. The Eldritch Knight is a holdover prestige class from 3.5 The Magus is a new base class built from the ground up to do "sword & spell" combat from level 1.

If you're more interested in the spell casting than the sword/spell combos, then I'd recommend going straight wizard.

[Jiggy]

Wolfsnap wrote:

If you're really dead set on the eldritch knight, then that's cool. However, especially for a PFS character, I'm going to recommend you look at the Magus class from Ultimate Magic instead. The Eldritch Knight is a holdover prestige class from 3.5 The Magus is a new base class built from the ground up to do "sword & spell" combat from level 1.

If you're more interested in the spell casting than the sword/spell combos, then I'd recommend going straight wizard.

I enjoy doing nonstandard/unpopular builds.

My level 7 fighter has:
STR 18
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 12
CHA 08
...and hasn't died once.

My 16STR rogue is only level 2 but is kicking butt.

My druid doesn't even like animals.

Etc.

The magus is for mortals. The eldritch knight is for the greats.

/playful boasting

;)

[Alitan]

As far as bonded item, you only have to be HOLDING it to use it; it doesn't need to be unsheathed, as far as I can tell RAW: just grab the hilt and go. And making it your weapon saves you a ring slot.

On the spell focus, I'd really suggest looking over the list of necromancy spells... not a lot of AoE, I'll grant you, but LOTS of really debilitating ones, and some decent AoE at higher levels.

One thing about the Eldritch Knight; that Spell Critical feature does require a swift action, so you can't really use Arcane Armor Training/Mastery and still take advantage of the Spell Critical. So consider how you're going to manage that pesky arcane spell failure percentage. Can't always count on finding a Robe of the Archmagi (best solution for the problem). Bracers of Armor are more common.

PS: Unfamiliar with your weapon; may I presume it sits in the 18-20 critical threat range?

[Jiggy]

Alitan wrote:

One thing about the Eldritch Knight; that Spell Critical feature does require a swift action, so you can't really use Arcane Armor Training/Mastery and still take advantage of the Spell Critical. So consider how you're going to manage that pesky arcane spell failure percentage. Can't always count on finding a Robe of the Archmagi (best solution for the problem). Bracers of Armor are more common.

Seeing as this is for PFS, Spell Critical isn't an issue. It's impossible to reach EK10.

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PS: Unfamiliar with your weapon; may I presume it sits in the 18-20 critical threat range?

It's from UC: the eastern equivalent to a longsword. ;)

[Jiggy]

My biggest question now is race.

The contenders:

Human: +1 AC (Dodge as bonus feat), +1 skill rank per level

Half-Orc: +1 all saves (Sacred Tattoo), Darkvision

Half-Elf: +1 HP (extra FCB), +2 Will (Dual-Minded)

All solid options. Thoughts?

[Jiggy]

Nobody?

[Mike Schneider]

IMO your primary impediment as a melee remains hitpoints -- if you get hit once by a BBEM, you don't have much cushion remaining; and a wand of Infernal Healing is a poor substitute for emergency healing in any desperately needed amount by mid-level. (This is where, as I wrote in the other thread, clerics and bards have a clear advantage over OKs.)

You remain very MAD with high scores in STR, DEX and INT and the expense of CON. The high strength is stealing a lot from the rest of the build in able to fight with weapons (rather than, say, making Weapon Finesse touch-attacks with charged spells).

[Jiggy]

Mike Schneider wrote:

IMO your primary impediment as a melee remains hitpoints -- if you get hit once by a BBEM, you don't have much cushion remaining; and a wand of Infernal Healing is a poor substitute for emergency healing in any desperately needed amount by mid-level. (This is where, as I wrote in the other thread, clerics and bards have a clear advantage over OKs.)

1. The wand is for out-of-combat healing. Emergency healing, as with all my characters, will involve a potion of CMW (or CSW later on).

2. First stat boost item will be a CON belt. (Fun fact: Cledwyn also started with 12 CON, no Toughness, and only 1 FCB into HP.)

But anyway, that's not what's up in the air at this point. Any suggestions on the race decision?

[Mike Schneider]

Cledwyn can get away with it because his full-plate/Armor-Training AC is in the stratosphere (and he needn't spend actions getting it up to snuff).

Other note: since you do not continue advancing as a wizard after going EK, your class abilities stall at wiz5 unless EK grants continued advancement (i.e., you won't get Foretell from the Foresight school, etc).

= = = = =

If you're going to sack CON, you might as well play an elf and get bonuses to DEX and INT, among other juicy bennies:

Something like:

STR:12
DEX+17 (bump 4th)
CON-12
INT+16 (bump 8th,12th)
WIS:14
CHA:07

Traits: Warrior of Old, Focused Mind

01 ranger1 Weapon Finesse
02 wizard1 [Conjuration(Teleportation)]

...at 1st, your elf/ranger Perception is +7 relative to the Wis10/fighter human build, and you have a chance to auto-detect traps merely by being near them (because you're an elf). -- Tell me that ain't worth coughing a fighter feat. At 4th, your DEX becomes 18 relative to the other build's 16, equaling the human bonus from Dodge and leaving you "even" feat-wise in that respect.

Tactics: archery and buff spells; touch-attacks in melee until Haste + Agile shortsword or other light weapon.

The Teleportation subschool trades one of the most lame of school powers (Acid Dart) for one of the best -- the ability to short-range DimDoor as a Swift action (never be hosebagged from prone/grappled/swallowed ever again!).

Recommend taking Wizard6 instead of EK6 (I'd take Wiz6 at 8th); trades -2hp for +1 to all saves, +1hp(class), and an extra 5' to the range of the Teleportation school power. EK6 offers nothing. Taking wiz6 also delays EK5 to 12th (instead of 11th) -- and that is bloody handy because it's the only way an EK can obtain Critical Focus in PFS (he hits BAB9 at 12th).

[Jiggy]

But do you have any commentary on the three races I asked about, without significantly altering the overall build?

[Mike Schneider]

Sorry; I'm me; and me likes my way. ;-)

[MicMan]

I'd say Human.

You need to be the one acting not reacting to make an EK work.

High Perception and High Initiative are needed. 1 HP/Lvl or +1 saves is nice, but will not cut it.

[Jiggy]

MicMan wrote:

I'd say Human.

You need to be the one acting not reacting to make an EK work.

High Perception and High Initiative are needed. 1 HP/Lvl or +1 saves is nice, but will not cut it.

Your response makes no sense. You say human, then you say I need high perception (while human will have the lowest) and high initiative (which is unaffected by race).

What are you talking about?

[dkonen]

Honestly, IMHO, I would go with Half Orc, since Darkvision is much more likely to show up, and +1 saves is going to save your butt much more often than that +1 AC, and Dodge can be a later purchase, whereas the racial can`t be purchased.

If you want high Perception, skill focus it with Half Elf, though personally, I`d leave the ultra high perception rolls to the scouting types, since that's what they're for. This is, of course, largely dependent on having a cooperative party that can rely on eachother.

As an EK you'll be in battle a good part of the time and if you take some conjuring, you can bring out scouts as needed.

As for spell focus, necromancy is good for debuffing, evocation is good for blasting, though I'd suggest tailoring the choice to the type of combat you'll most likely be involved in. Touch spells don't help much if you're at range all the time (without buying reach spell, that is), and ranged aoes are a bit off if you're always in the middle of things.

I would make one other (off topic)recommendation however: buy a lesser rod of extend as soon as you can afford it. Buffs will be your friend for whatever combat type you're going to be a part of.

[Jiggy]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply! Here are my responses:

dkonen wrote:

Honestly, IMHO, I would go with Half Orc, since Darkvision is much more likely to show up, and +1 saves is going to save your butt much more often than that +1 AC, and Dodge can be a later purchase, whereas the racial can`t be purchased.

I've been leaning heavily that direction myself, especially since having unexpectedly GM'd another scenario and earned enough gold to add a +1 to his armor before I actually play him. It's very tempting.

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If you want high Perception, skill focus it with Half Elf, though personally, I`d leave the ultra high perception rolls to the scouting types, since that's what they're for. This is, of course, largely dependent on having a cooperative party that can rely on eachother.

Okay, regarding the Perception issue that keeps coming up:

There are two main situations in which you need Perception: finding the MacGuffin, and avoiding an ambush. For finding MacGuffins, you can usually clear out the room first to allow you to Take 20. For ambushes, well, I'm a Foresight wizard; I don't have to know anyone's there - I get to act in the surprise round anyway! So Perception's not a high priority for me.

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As for spell focus, necromancy is good for debuffing, evocation is good for blasting, though I'd suggest tailoring the choice to the type of combat you'll most likely be involved in. Touch spells don't help much if you're at range all the time (without buying reach spell, that is), and ranged aoes are a bit off if you're always in the middle of things.

Well, I won't always be in the thick of things. Sometimes my +10 initiative means I'm leading off with an opportunistic AoE. Or if the party of the week happens to already have tanks (with more HP than me), I wouldn't mind playing more of a support role.

I'm kind of leaning toward conjuration, since their AoE's frequently have effects even on a successful save. That way, when I hit the group of enemies but don't drop them, they don't all rush me and splatter me before I can get my shield up.

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I would make one other (off topic)recommendation however: buy a lesser rod of extend as soon as you can afford it. Buffs will be your friend for whatever combat type you're going to be a part of.

Duly noted, thanks. I'll keep that in mind as I level up.

[rat_ bastard]

I'm a big fan of light all metal weapons, the dueling enchantment helps a caster a lot and an adamantite weapon with the highest base bonus you can give it a lot of sunder resistance. It still wont protect you from an AM BARBARIAN scale sunder monkey but most people will not be able to scratch it. Rapier is good for this, as is Kukri, rock crits and spell storing when you are not casting.

[dkonen]

I don't know if I'd put the spell focus in conjuration, unless you're going for the conjuration feat chain for summons (useful and handy, but expensive).

Usually spell focus on its own is something you want to buff up a school that has a lot of DCs, which-unless you're using 3.x material-conjuration doesn't(if allowed, spell compendium has some nice spells for conjuration blasting).

That being said, conjuration (even without 3.x) is an amazing school for ..well.. everything. There are threads upon threads extolling it's virtues, but it's very hands on, so know what you're getting into and be prepared to put in some prep time between sessions to speed things up at the table.

If you want tips on conjuration as a school, I'd suggest looking it up, there are tons of great guides out there, and reposted here, it would be an entirely new thread unto itself.

Transmutation can also work well for more militant casters, with the wide range of buffs. I think it would largely come down to a question of versatility vs. ease of play.

[Jiggy]

dkonen wrote:

I don't know if I'd put the spell focus in conjuration, unless you're going for the conjuration feat chain for summons (useful and handy, but expensive).

Usually spell focus on its own is something you want to buff up a school that has a lot of DCs, which-unless you're using 3.x material-conjuration doesn't(if allowed, spell compendium has some nice spells for conjuration blasting).

Uh....

Grease
Create Pit
Glitterdust
Web
Aqueous Orb
Spiked Pit
Stinking Cloud
Acid Pit
Black Tentacles
Cloudkill
Etc, etc, etc.

Honestly, I'm trying to remember why I ever considered putting it in Evocation...

[dkonen]

I'm not a fan of the Pit spells, personally, and most of those spells are fairly low level, which means at higher level you're probably casting something else, for higher DCs.

Then again, avoiding DCs is a personal issue. I generally don't like having to worry about saves, so if I am building a character who'll be using DCs I try to ramp them up as high as I can as soon as possible, so I can "fire and forget" again.

All of this, is of course, contingent upon having a more lenient GM. If he runs you through resource management scenarios regularly, utterly disregard the above (yes, our games suffer from 15 minute workdays-though suffer is a harsh term, since we scale for it).

I also usually have access to a ton of books and supplements,so "few/lots" is largely relative to what you have access to.

You do make a good point, though, I'm going to have to revisit my (apparently) outdated notions and find out which school does have the least (per capita) saving throws. Now I'm curious.

[Jiggy]

Ah, you seem to have missed that this was for a Pathfinder Society Organized Play character. A few things:

dkonen wrote:

I'm not a fan of the Pit spells, personally, and most of those spells are fairly low level, which means at higher level you're probably casting something else, for higher DCs.

With PFS capping at 12th level, the highest CL attainable for an EK is 10th, meaning 5th level spells are the highest I'll ever cast. I stopped listing after that.

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Then again, avoiding DCs is a personal issue. I generally don't like having to worry about saves, so if I am building a character who'll be using DCs I try to ramp them up as high as I can as soon as possible, so I can "fire and forget" again.

All of this, is of course, contingent upon having a more lenient GM. If he runs you through resource management scenarios regularly, utterly disregard the above (yes, our games suffer from 15 minute workdays-though suffer is a harsh term, since we scale for it).

PFS scenarios usually have about 5-ish encounters, with 2-5 of them being combat, and they may or may not be spread across more than one day. So worst-case-scenario, I have to manage 5 fights in one day. As a result, having spells that not only damage enemies but also hinder them seems really appealing, as I can get more bang for my buck.

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I also usually have access to a ton of books and supplements,so "few/lots" is largely relative to what you have access to.

You do make a good point, though, I'm going to have to revisit my (apparently) outdated notions and find out which school does have the least (per capita) saving throws. Now I'm curious.

I've seen great things with conjuration just from being at the table with other casters. Grease is one of the best 1st-level spells around (surpassed at low levels by color spray, but little else). Create Pit, if placed strategically, can really modify an encounter (doorway, anyone?) and you can really put on the pain if you ready to cast during the enemy's turn.* Aqueous Orb forces more than one save, and you can chase down those who make their saves to force more. Etc, etc.

Okay, I talked myself into it: screw evocation, I'm going SF:Conjuration. Now if only I could be decisive about my race.

*If a creature ends its turn adjacent to the pit, it has to make a save (albeit with a +2 bonus) or tumble in. So you ready to cast when the mook approaches/attacks/whatever. Put it right under them, and they have to make a save. If they fail, great. If they make it, they're now standing in the "danger zone", and have to make a choice: spend an action to move away (in which case I prevented a full-attack, maybe forced an AoO, etc), or stay there and risk another save. And if they risk that second save and still make it, they have to make that decision all over again on their next turn.

[dkonen]

Ah I probably wasn't paying appropriate attention. My apologies, I'm just working on my second cup of coffee today now and it usually takes four to get me fully awake.

[Jiggy]

dkonen wrote:

Ah I probably wasn't paying appropriate attention. My apologies, I'm just working on my second cup of coffee today now and it usually takes four to get me fully awake.

No worries; heck, you gave me enough to talk about that I got one of my decisions made!

[Sarrion]

Nice thing about pit spells is that you can use your summons to bullrush enemies into them and they get no save if you are successful. Now you just need to communicate that with the summons some how.

[Jiggy]

Sarrion wrote:

Nice thing about pit spells is that you can use your summons to bullrush enemies into them and they get no save if you are successful. Now you just need to communicate that with the summons some how.

Meh, not planning on summoning. Too much bookwork.

[Mike Schneider]

Buy a wrestler's mask and bullrush them yourself!

[Tigersage]

Hey Jiggy, was wondering how your build turned out and if you had a chance to play it? I'm in a similar situation with a lot of GM credit for a PC I intended to eventually be an Eldritch Knight.

I had originally wanted him to be a melee guy, but lately have had this idea of a ranged blaster, either through spells (evocation focus) or arrows. That and I have a lot of melee characters already. I was curious how your build was working before I talk myself out of melee style Eldritch Knight.

[Jiggy]

Tigersage wrote:

Hey Jiggy, was wondering how your build turned out and if you had a chance to play it? I'm in a similar situation with a lot of GM credit for a PC I intended to eventually be an Eldritch Knight.

I had originally wanted him to be a melee guy, but lately have had this idea of a ranged blaster, either through spells (evocation focus) or arrows. That and I have a lot of melee characters already. I was curious how your build was working before I talk myself out of melee style Eldritch Knight.

Have a look!

I've had a couple of chances to play him; once or twice at level 3, and once at level 4.

I'm pretty satisfied so far. I put my free Spell Focus into Conjuration, and my spells are either no-save (like scorching ray) or still good if they make the save (like create pit or, against swarms, burning hands).

I use my sword in melee, and spells at range. Rather than carry a bow, I managed to get a chronicle sheet with a half-charged, CL3 wand of magic missile with no purchase limit.

I'm enjoying the Forewarned+wand of shield schtick. I always get to act in the surprise round, and if I don't have a target yet (perhaps due to acting before the ambushers have even revealed themselves) I just buff my AC so I can tank. If the enemy is apparent, I can either shield up, or attack, or cast. I pretty much always have something to do, which is really nice. He's sort of the ultimate all-purpose combatant. (At least, he seems so thus far.)