I feel like the spellcating these classes get is rather cumbersome, with spells per day at each level in the 1-3 range for most of their careers, plenty of spells that are only marginally useful, yet having to pick and choose which to carry each day, means that players are likely to prepare the same generally useful spells each day without ever tapping into the other stuff available.
Suggestion 1) Allow paladins and rangers to spontaneously cast any spells they have on their spell lists, keeping their spells per day at the same number they are currently.
Suggestion 2) Increase the rate at which they gain extra spells.
Does anyone feel the same way about this? Do you think one or both of the suggestions look reasonable, or have you any of your own?
I think spontaneous paladins and rangers would be easier. Not the whole spell list though; that could get cumbersome with players looking through 3 or 4 books for the best spell for each situation. Maybe spells known equal to 3 + spells per day for each level of spellcasting.
I also think they should have more swift/immediate action cast, 1 or 1d4 round buffs or weapon enhancements.
Spontaneous casting, but not the whole list. A smaller list results in faster decisions.
Some option for quickened casting could be good too. For example a LoH expenditure for a paladin might work, not sure what for a ranger though. Or multiple spell slots for both classes could work.
There are a few spells for rangers that are swift/immediate actions, like Instant Enemy and Bolt of Venom. Spell Compendium has Swift Haste, which is 2nd level ranger spell that is a swift action to cast, and hastes the ranger (only) for 1d4 rounds.
Or maybe even a special metamagic feat....
Sudden Spell
Requirements: Spellcraft 5 ranks.
Benefits: You can change the casting time of a spell that targets yourself from a standard action to an immediate action; this reduces the duration of the spell to 1 round if it normally has a duration of 1 minute per level or less; if the duration is normally greater than 1 minute per level, its duration is reduced to 1 round per level. This metamagic feat can only be applied to spells that have a duration of more than 1 round.
A sudden spell does not use up a higher-level spell slot than the spell’s actual level.
I think the spell list is supposed to be limited to being a 3rd option or even less at times.
Fullcasters are designed to work off of spells.
Hybrids(bards, magus, inquisitor) are designed for spells to be useful, but not always be the center of the character.
Lesser casters(rangers and paladins) seem to be design to have a limited spell list, and those spells while made to be somewhat useful are designed to stay on the backburner in most situations.
If their spell list gets better then they get to compete with the inquisitor or alchemist which I forgot to put in the hybrid list.
If a player wanted the spells to play a greater role in my games I would probably require him to take a hit somewhere else.
With that said if you want them to be more casty for lack of a better word you can allow them to pick a spell off of a similar class list when it levels up, but that would require work on your part. As an example the paladin might get access to some cleric spells, and the ranger would get a druid spell.
Spontaneous casting, but not the whole list. A smaller list results in faster decisions.
Paladins or Paladin multi-class are the most common characters I play and I've never had a problem with the spell-casting aspect of them - but the OP is 100% correct in that it lends itself to using just a handful of spells. In fact, here is the eventual spell list of my current Paladin at level 20 (he's a follower of Sarenrae):
Spells:
1st - Hero’s Defiance, Grace (x4)
2nd - Litany of Righteousness (x3), Communal Protection vs. Evil
3rd – Blessing of Fervor (x3), Sanctify Armor
4th – Fire of Vengeance, Shield of the Dawnflower (x3)
I have to say that I really like the idea of making them spontaneous casters but seriously carving down their spell list. If nothing else it will make the Archetypes that much more unique.
I use this houserule. Spells' DC is 10 + caster level/2 + stat bonus.
I use this houserule. Spells' DC is 10 + caster level/2 + stat bonus.Ok you lost me. A bit confused as to what you are refering to?
There are many spells for non complete caster that require a ST. Since a paladin or ranger reach 4th level spells at best it's clear that this spell are useless, because only a low level CR would fail the save, and a martial doesn't need help in that situation. Also there are many spells for full caster that are never used.
So, i did this change. A very few spell needed a fix to work with that, but now paladins and rangers don't use just buffs and some utility spell. Yes, there's still the problem of the few number of slot, but with some magic item, feat or archetype you can increase it.
I play rangers almost exclusively and find that their casting is fine.
considering that both paladins and rangers are excellent classes in their own right even without spells the spells do a very good job as they are.
having said that I do feel that the OP is correct, most players simply have to pick a small group of spells to basically always have and more or less ignore the rest except in specific situations.
that is why I play a spirit ranger. no pet but i get a bonus spell slot every 4 levels that can be used to cast any spell available to the ranger without actually preparing it. so although at 9th level i may have
1x gravity bow,
2x aspect of the falcon
2x cats grace prepared.
I have 2 opportunities to cast alarm, message, stone call, campfire wall or any other spell as necessary when the situation requires.
for this I give up my pet which I replace with the leadership feat at level 7.
works for me.
I dont know if paladins have any equivalent to this but I can honestly say that even if rangers didnt get any spells i would still play them because the spells are not that critical to the class.
I could get behind a spontaneous archetype for rangers and paladins. But I don't think there is anything fundamentally "wrong" with either class's spellcasting as it is. We are talking about full BAB classes, one of which gets free feats and the other which gets smite. Plus both get some powerful spells at lower caster levels than full casters.
My 14th level ranger is a damage machine, raining destruction like an avenging angel. His spell casting is fun, but frankly sometimes seems to be an abundance of riches for an already impressive character.
Also, don't forget their ability to use wands and scrolls...
Spontaneous would be a nice flavor change, but that's about it.
I don't want to make spellcasting the focus of paladins and rangers, or even make it MUCH stronger. I just want to make it possible for them to actually use their spell lists. There are a lot of spells that are incredibly situational, that you will almost never prepare, and that's kind of a shame.
Giving them spontaneous casting but limiting them to a small selection of known spells would just have them in the same situation they're in now.
the spell selection is small enough.
if you want a spontaneous casting ranger pic spirit ranger archtype I think it does the job perfectly.
If you want a spontaneous casting paladin house rule a similar archtype... say for instance a paladin that gives up the ability to channel but instead gains a spontaneous casting spell slot every 3 or 4 levels.
I don't want to make spellcasting the focus of paladins and rangers, or even make it MUCH stronger. I just want to make it possible for them to actually use their spell lists.
You've had a different play experience than I have, really. The few Paladins I've seen will make use of their spells pretty readily, doubly so in the absence of a devoted divine caster. They do tend to decide one "role" for their spells to play- pre-combat protections, in-combat utility/defense, etc... and are frequently slow to change that idea, but mostly due to the fact that spellcasting is almost an afterthought in the mix of the rest of their class abilities.
There are a lot of spells that are incredibly situational, that you will almost never prepare, and that's kind of a shame.
This is also a feature of hybrid and main-line casters too. It's a design aesthetic in games, and any RPG that keeps producing material will eventually tread this ground.
It's probably more profound for Rangers and Paladins due to the combination of few opportunities to make use of the breadth of their choices, and the fact that they have so many other ways of dealing with corner-case situations besides using spells designed for the purpose.
The suggestion of making them sponaneous casters and giving them a narrow list of spells known is a good approach. If this still chafes, allow them to "set" half their spells known as something that will never change, and the other half they can change with an expensive ritual/quest they can only perform during some set time.
Perhaps every season on their god's festival, they can fast for several days, then meditate in isolation for 24 hours (from prayer period to prayer period), during which they receive visions that instruct them in their new spells. Rangers may isolate themselves in the world of nature spirits, stalking the proper mystic entities to teach them a new spell. These spirits only appear in seasons which correlate to the creature and spell, and if they are caught before the hunt finishes- terrible things happen.