Can a shadow affect a creature immune to "death effects"?

[Master Ankho]

I premise this question with my understanding that "death effects" are not unquestionably defined in the rules and that I think it's a fair reading of the entry on Death Attacks to take the position that "death attack or effect" implies that the two terms encompass different things, just as one could take the position that "attack" is synonymous with "effect".

Taking the former position, I think it's clear that certain spells, e.g., those with the [death] descriptor, are death attacks and/or death effects. In contrast, a shadow inflicts ability damage that is a negative energy effect, notwithstanding the fact that many creatures (e.g., constructs, undead) are immune to shadows. However, it seems to me that creatures like constructs and undead are only immune to shadows because of their immunity to ability damage, rather than their immunity to death attacks (and presumably effects).

Thoughts?

[Jeraa]

Yes, a shadow can hurt things immune to death effects. A death effect is anything with the [Death] descriptor, or that specifically says it is a death effect.

Negative energy attacks are not death effects unless they specifically say they are.

Constructs are immune to shadows, as they are immune to all ability damage. Other undead are immune to shadows, as a shadows attacks are Strength damage, and undead are immune to damage to their physical scores (they can still take ability damage to their mental scores).

But both undead and constructs would still be immune to a shadows attacks, as a shadows attack only affects living targets. Constructs and undead aren't living.

Compare the shadows touch attack to a banshees wail. The wail specifically states its a death effect. The shadows touch does not.

[Jack Rackham]

Master Ankho wrote:

I premise this question with my understanding that "death effects" are not unquestionably defined in the rules and that I think it's a fair reading of the entry on Death Attacks to take the position that "death attack or effect" implies that the two terms encompass different things, just as one could take the position that "attack" is synonymous with "effect".

Taking the former position, I think it's clear that certain spells, e.g., those with the [death] descriptor, are death attacks and/or death effects. In contrast, a shadow inflicts ability damage that is a negative energy effect, notwithstanding the fact that many creatures (e.g., constructs, undead) are immune to shadows. However, it seems to me that creatures like constructs and undead are only immune to shadows because of their immunity to ability damage, rather than their immunity to death attacks (and presumably effects).

Thoughts?

Consider the immunities description of these two creatures:

Demon, Nabasu - death effects, electricity, paralysis, poison

Shinigami - ability damage, ability drain, cold, death effects, disease, energy drain, negative energy, poison

These descriptions seem to indicate that the Shadows touch is not a "Death Effect", but simply "Ability Damage" that results in death and spawning rather than the normal unconsciousness associated with a Strength of 0 or less. Otherwise, the Shinigami immunities to ability damage and ability drain are superfluous.

This would indicate the demon can be killed by a Shadow doing strength damage in the same way it can die from loss of hit points. Neither is a "Death Effect".

I am interested in any feedback on my logic here.

[Frankthedm]

While the "A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score." section certainly feels like a death effect IMHO, it isn't specifically called a death effect.