Monk Armor

[wolfen]

Ok so I am trying to gear out my monk so my AC can atleast be on par with others. So I have given him +3 Robes and Bracers of armor +4. The question is does the Enchancment Bonus from the robes stack with the armor bonus of the bracers? I ask this because all of my friends say no that they are both enhancements bonuses yet in the description of the bracers it just states Armor Bonus.

[blackbloodtroll]

They stack, bracers of armor provide a armor bonus. If you friends question, ask them if a mwy breastplate stacks, because for the purposes of stacking, they are the same thing.

[Talynonyx]

Bracers of Armor and regular armor do not function together. You gain only the highest bonus.

[TriOmegaZero]

If they are both armor bonuses, they will not stack. If one enhances an armor bonus, it will increase the other.

[Mojorat]

if you enchanted robes to give you +3 armour it would be the same type of bonus as bracers of armour so they would not stack.

[blackbloodtroll]

Yeah, wait, what kind of bonus is the +3 robe providing you? I had the idea you meant monk's robes.

[wolfen]

From the book "They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor." From the sounds of this Bracers are just armor based not enhancement based. So from that would not an armor enhancement bonus stack.

[Beckett]

The +3 robes are an Enhancement bonus to Armor bonus and the Bracers of Armor are a Armor Bonus. Tese are two differnt things and do stack. Just like a +3 Fullplate has both an Armor Bonus (+8) and an Enhancement bonus to Armor (+3). Othrwise, it would need to be a +9 or higher to have any affect at all on full plate.

[Talynonyx]

"Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning."

They do not stack because they do not function together.

Also to Beckett: Full plate has a base armor bonus of 9, not 8.

[Beckett]

You are right about the full plate. Not seeing why people keep saying the +3 Robes are armor though?.

[wolfen]

True it does state if one bonus is larger but if you read it carefully it states "Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning." Now if you look under what a special ability is classified as for armor its enhancement bonus is not considered one. There for the armor itself and its "Special Abilitys" cease to function but its enchantments bonus does not.

[TriOmegaZero]

Where can I find these robes? If they are simply masterwork cloth enchanted like armor, then the enhancement bonus they have does not stack with bracers, in the same way enchanted leather armor doesn't.

[wolfen]

Monks Robes Basic Adventuring Gear. So yes enchanted cloth much like what a caster would wear. Now you say it does not stack but were does it state that? You can say it does not all you want but my previous post supports the conclusion so far that it does.

[blackbloodtroll]

The core question is, what type of bonus does the robes provide?

[wolfen]

Enhancement.

[blackbloodtroll]

Armor enhancement bonus? Not all enhancement bonuses are created equal.

[wolfen]

Yes Armor Enhancement Bonus.

[Maezer]

"Enhancement bonus apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides."

This can be found on p.179 of the core rule book.

Thus your +3 robe is providing you a +3 armor bonus. And your bracers of armor are providing you a +4 armor bonus. And they don't stack.

This was also covered expressly in the 3.5 FAQ. Where again they stated that enhancement bonus don't stack with bracers of armor.

[Jeraa]

There is no such thing as just an enhancement bonus. An enhancement bonus always applies to another bonus. (Enhancement bonus to strength, enhancement bonus to armor, etc. Never just an enhancement bonus.)

+1 chain mail is not a +1 enhancement bonus, and a +4 armor bonus. ITs a +5 armor bonus. +3 robes are not a +3 enhancement bonus and a +0 armor bonus. Its a +3 armor bonus.

Look at the creatures in the Beastiary for example. Like the Solar. It has +5 full plate. Check its AC line. +14 armor bonus. Not a +9 armor bonus and a +5 armor enhancement bonus.

[wolfen]

Ahh now that I can agree with. So in the case that it does not stack instead could the bracers then be enchanted with an armor enchancment bonus? They state "Bracers of armor cannot have a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +8. But since in magic armor it states "A suit of armor cannot have an effective
bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents)higher than +10.
So since "Bracers of Armors" Armor bonus counts as an armor bonus not a special ability bonus could it not then be enchanted?

[Maezer]

As a GM, I'd let you run bracers of armor past the +8 cap to +14 (equal to full plate +5). But I'd leave the pricing scheme at bonus^2 * 1000gp. So your +14 bracers of armor would cost you 196,000gp. (Probably prohibitively expensive but in my experience Monk AC are rarely low particularly at the high end of the level spectrum (Level 11+)).

But this is even farther into the realm of custom magic items and thus should be discussed with your GM.

[Thac20]

Bracers (armor bonus), ring of protection (deflection bonus) and amulet of natural armor (natural armor bonus) stack since they are different types of bonuses to armor class.

If you have someone in your group that can cast Mage Armor, that may be a cheap substitute for +4 bracers.

[The Bald Man]

Robes are not armor and should not enchanted to provide an enhancement bonus to armor.

[master arminas]

The Bald Man wrote:

Robes are not armor and should not enchanted to provide an enhancement bonus to armor.

Except there are robes in canon RAW that do precisely that: or have you forgotten the robes of the archmagi?

Master Arminas

[Beckett]

Magic Vestment.

[Brain in a Jar]

master arminas wrote:

The Bald Man wrote:

Robes are not armor and should not enchanted to provide an enhancement bonus to armor.

Except there are robes in canon RAW that do precisely that: or have you forgotten the robes of the archmagi?

Master Arminas

Actually the robes work like Bracers of Armor. If they were non-magical robes or bracers they wouldn't provide any armor bonus at all and don't count as armor at all.

[Master_Crafter]

The way I see thigs here is that, just as the robes are considered a +0 base armor given a +3 armor enhacement (thus becoming a piece of +3 armor), the bracers are themselves also +0 base armor given an enhacement bonus becoming +n armor. This is further suppored by the pricing scheme for armor, where it costs the bonus (n) squared times 1000gp.

for example, a +2 armor enhancement costs 2*2*1000=400
which is the same as bracers of armor +2

And +4 armor enhancement costs 4*4*1000=1600
which is the same as bracers of armor +4

This trend follows for all of the armor enhancement costs and bracers of armor of equal enhancement, therefore it is reasonable that the bracers themselves, when adjusted for this (mundane versions of which cost a couple of gold) are base +0 armor.

That is why I would say that you cannot further enhance bracers of armor past the +8, as bracers of armor are only magically enhaced armor. In fact they are special in that they are the only piece of magically enhaced armor which can exceed the normal +5 cap on enhancement bonus, a point which I think was deliberate for the fact that these are the only armor items available to most arcane casters and monks, allowing them to benefit as though they were still wearing +5 leather armor without actually counting as armor.

Edit: but I just read the entry for Bracers of aromor again, and it actually says "bracers of armor can not have a modified armor bonus higher than +8" calling out that "modified" means "modified by special armor qualities", wich aeems to imply that the actual AC provided by these cannot exceed +5. What is the consensus here?

[Master_Crafter]

Oh, and maezer, I doubt that you'd be saying that Monk AC was low if you had a look at wolfen's character. Granted, he is stacking bracers of armor with robes of armor, but he has ac AC of around 60.

And even an unarmored monk (without bracers of armor, an amulet of natural armor, a ring of protection, a circlet of Wis, a belt of Dex or any other bonuses) can achieve the following through min-maxing:

Base 10, Class AC +5, Wis AC +5, Dex AC+5, Ki AC +4 (I think)= 29 AC

Add in those bonuses and you can easily get an additional:
Bracer AC +8, Amulet AC +4, Ring AC +4, Circlet AC +3, Belt AC +3= +22 AC for a total of +51
Heck, take out the Ki ACand you are sill left with AC 47, touch 35, flatfooted 37 (he only loses Dex)

I really don't se how monk AC is underpowered. His only weakness is if he is ever helpless.

[Maezer]

I meant to imply his premise for wanting a greater AC to justify the custom item was flawed based upon the following quote.

"I am trying to gear out my monk so my AC can atleast be on par with others"

Granted I had no idea what AC he or his compatriots have. But my general finding is that monks (without using custom magic items to further supplement their AC) trail on AC slightly from level 0-5ish. Are about average from 5-10, and start pulling away at 11+.

[Master_Crafter]

OK Maezer, I see where you are coming from on this. I tend to agree that at lower lvls (1-6ish) monks are at a slight disadvantage, but they skyrocket in the upper lvls to be quite competitive, if not outright untouchable.

Still, the question right now is more whether or not the bonus to armor from Bracers of Armor is from the magical enhancement of a basic piece of armor with a natural +0 bonus, like robes, or if the armor granted by his item is more of an actual physical benefit which can be further enhanced, such as normal chainmail or plate armor.

Being part of wolfen's group myself, and against him on this issue, I don't want to be the only one posting my opinions on this matter.

The only other comment on this matter so far was a houserule proposed by you which actually broke the listed AC cap on these items but kept the pricing consistent with the bonus squared *1000 pricing scheme of armor enhancement.

Please, what are your thoughts on this.

[galahad2112]

Unfortunately for Wolfen, I don't think that they would stack since enhancement bonuse (in common terms section) states:
"Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks"

Obviously, we're not concerned with the touch AC, but it turns the robe into a +3 armor, which would not stack with Bracers. At that point, I'd just make the robe a +5 and call it a day, since I don't think that even Mage Armor would stack with either item.