First, a big thanks and shout out to everyone who's ever posted about clerics/oracles and bards---reading these boards has been a great help!
Second, for story reasons I want to bring in a Bard cohort (Level 15) for my Merciful Healer Cleric (who will soon reach Level 17) in a table top Pathfinder game.
My DM's combat encounter style is, in his own words, "ball-breakingly hard," fighting High CR's w/ High AC and High Spell Resistance. We fight mostly Demons, Devils, & Aberrations, AND Will saves are crucial.
Which of the archetypes in Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, & Ultimate Combat might prove best at surviving AND being effective?
I am leaning toward Arcane Duelist (heavy armor proficiency w/o spell failure and some helpful bonus feats), or Archaeologist because they get Evasion/Improved Evasion & Rogue Talents/Advanced Talents.
I don't really care if this bard is primarily controller or melee so long as it can survive for three levels/till the end of the campaign. Again, this is for story reasons and so that while I spend turns healing/buffing/removing conditions, my cohort can do something more exciting.
How do I prioritize stats and feats? (Perhaps Dexterity/Weapon Finesse to boost the armor class and plus to hit at same time?)
Should I focus on Saves or Armor or HP when choosing items, feats, & spells?
Any advice is appreciated---thanks!
Well, i can´t really comment on the bard, as i´m building my first for Skulls & Shackles, but i start drooling at the thought of your leadership- score, so i´ll recommend getting an azata or agathion cohort with some levels.
Spontaneosly, i´m thinking that a arcane duelist built to survive could use a whip : weapon finesse, agile manouvers, improved trip, weapon focus, whip mastery...
I also have to mentioned the feat: Flagbearer, which i found when building my character.
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Halfling would be my racial pick for a good defensive bard. Don't bother with finesse if you're going arcane duelist, but give him balanced stats, leaning to 16 dexterity once all buffs are accounted for; that's perfect for mithral full plate, which he can move at full speed in with a sash of the war champion. A heavy darkwood shield and cestus would leave him free to cast spells and buff the rest of you while still making him relevant in melee.
Thanks for putting thought and time into addressing my poor bard.
Cestus sounds good! And I'd love it if my DM would give me agathion or Azata cohort but I'm certain he won't, based on the mythos of his homebrew world.
I have realized, however, that the biggest problem facing my cohort is that the stats of the party are beyond epic. Just for instance, my Merciful Healer 16 has these stats...
Str 14 (+2)
Dex 17 (+3) w/ +2 belt physical might 19 (+4)
Con 15 (+2) w/ +2 belt physical might (see above) 17 (+3)
Int 10 (+0) (I hate doing dump stats, but with no saves based on it...)
Wis 24 (+6) w/ +4 brooch & +2 inherent bonus = Wis 30 (+9)
Cha 16 (+3) w/ +2 ring & +2 inherent bonus = Cha 20 (+5)
A cohort starts with 8, 10, 13, 14, 15. Then gain +1 every four levels, and factor in racial adjustments. And I should only get 45,000 gp to spend on building it.
Sadly most of my money and planning must then go to stats and stat-boosting items. Especially since our sorcerer, who stays out of melee, still needs 22 Con just to survive, which means I need to try to match that even for a ranged spellcaster.
So I've decided to go DRAGON DISCIPLE (APG 381-382) because it gets Natural Armor bonuses, +2 Str, +2 Con, & +2 Int.
I'm wondering what bloodline energy type and damage type is best...fire, cold, or electricity? 60 foot line or 30 foot cone?
Still deciding which race: Gnome for -2 Str but bonuses to Cha and Con, and gnome fire magic from pyromania? Or lucky halfling? Or Human for the usual perks? Or elf for help beating SR? Or half-elf for alternate race feature potential bonus "feats" (Skill Focus, Weapon Prof, +2 Will saves)...
And I'll need five or six levels of one of the Bard archetypes...maybe Daredevil, Magician, or Archaeologist...
My answer would be to keep them out of the fighting and have them buff and use bardic performance to enhance the rest of the party.
A halfling archer bard is probably your best bet. His AC will be decent, and attacking from range will put him somewhat out of harm's way. I'd steer clear of archetypes that replace inspire courage; it really is that good. Note that the bonus to hit and damage is a competence bonus, which will stack with good hope, haste, and prayer. You can even have your halfling archer bard cohort get mounted archery feats and ride a very fast phantom steed to keep him even more out of trouble. I'm playing a bard right now (level 10) and I recommend the spells gallant inspiration and saving finale from the APG, especially if, as you say, saving throws are very important in your game (inspire courage also buffs will saves vs charm and fear). If you avoid spells that allow saves for your bard and focus on him getting buffs and utility spells, he'll only need a CHA of 16, and you can focus on a high DEX and decent CON. Also, Arcane Strike is indispensable for any bard making attack rolls, in my opinion. With that feat Small +3 shortbow-wielding bard could, with the buffs mentioned above could hit for 1d4+19, putting 6 arrows in the air per round, while buffing everyone.
Credit where it's due: much of the advice I've just given comes from Treantmonk's Guide to Bards. It's CRB-only, and thus a little outdated, but still good.
If saves, particularly will saves, are important, I would advise the following:
- positive values in wisdom
- the xxx finale spells (saving finale, purging finale, ...) can save yourself and your party more than once. Potentially get wands of those
- iron will, improved iron will feats
- positive con score
- if possible, buy a ring of evasion
- maybe you should not go for an archetype that loses well-versed. It does not seem like much at first, but it really is a great boost when you need it
- savage skald might be a worthy archetype: rage, DR, morale bonus on attacks...
Personally, I have played a core bard through a very long and challenging campaign from level 1 to 16. So just in case you did not think of it, it itself is also fine :-)
I'm actually playing an arcane duelist in my group's current compaign.
Now that we are at higher lvls, he really rocks, but it was slow going at the begining, let me tell you.
Inspire Courage is the bard's best class ability, and once you get access to either the spell Virtuoso Performance (lvl4) or Shadowbard (lvl5) you can stack that wih the enhancement bonus from Bladethirst. If you also use the spell Versatile Weapon, you can apply all your Bldethirst enhancement to special qualities and bypass any DR other than Magic (just get a +1 weeapon for that). And these bonuses stack with other spells like Heroism (or Greater Heroism or Good Hope at higher lvls) and Divine Power (if you can get that spell from someone/something).
In addition, you can use Bluff with Misdirection to get total concealment (from the Greater Invisibility portion of this spell) while standing right next to your image, moving randomly next to it, and get another +2 to hit and 50% miss chance to attacks against you, assuming they target the right square (and can't negate this with true seeing). Stack Blink on this for an additional 20% miss chance and you are up to 60%.
If you are willing, I would also suggest sacrificing one of your spells known for the Masterpiece of the Four Winds (Control Winds at your CL for 4 rnds of BP). This effect lasts 10 rounds per lvl, is fully shapable as will (concentration anyway, but the effects last even when you stop concentrating), and can negate all ranged attacks against you as soon as you get it (Windstorm effects pulled in to surround you, similar to Wind Wall spell, but better). And once you hit CL 15 you can make a tornado anywhere in it's range (5 mile radius around you) and anyone coming in contact with it has to make a fort save vs it's DC or be sucked in for 1d10 rounds and take 6d6 dmg per round, after which they are ejected and take falling dmg. But if it's big enough or you take the effort to control the tornado again they get to repeat the process.
You will definitely want to take Arcane Strike for the additional dmg, and at 11th lvl you can take the feat Discordant Voice (you should be using Oratory as your BP anyway so you can still hold a weapon) and you and your allies get an additional +1d6 sonic to every attack.
The boosts are good for the entire party, but remenber, you will be lacking early on as you can't "buy" these bonuses earlier than you will normally get them.
As for attack, I would try to get a weapon with a good crit range, such as kukri, rapiers, scimitars, or elven curved blades with either Imp. Crit or the Keen property. I personally chose to go with TWF for this character, which is furter augmented by the spell Allegro (Haste whenever you have a BP active, and one lvl lower than the actual Haste spell for Bards). So I effectively get 3 attacks at my highest bonuses.
But, if you just want to deal straight dmg, you can also use an elven curved blade (or something similar), set your Str at 13+ and get the Power Attack and Furious Focus feats.
Either way, if dmg is your concern, boost Str as much as possible. Expecially considering that the Arcane Duelist can get away with casting in Mithral Full Plate, you shouldn't need a very high Dex, just high enough to max out your Dex bonus to AC and still have a decent Ref save. Con will probably be more important to you, and I would probably focus on buffing spells so you can cap you Cha at 16.
I even took all this one step further and gave my bard Shatter Defenses, Master Combat Performer, Savage Display and Heroic display so that any time he hits with a critical (15+ on the die) he automatically gets another +1d6 dmg (same type as the weapon) and a free Intimidate check so that he can consider all oponents flat-footed, and if he is ever in a jam he can combine that with Dirge of Doom (auto-shaken, no save) and anyone he manages to intimidate has to run away pissing themselves.
Wow, thanks everyone!
I have until we gain a new level (about three-four sessions/weeks) to decide what my bard cohort will look like...
So I'm tempted to try building one of each of these bards, plus the dragon disciple, and playtest it a little! (Anything I can't use, I can pass off to my roommate, a DM who lets me build NPCs sometimes.)
This bard cohort is for a min-maxed Cthulu meets medieval England homebrewed horror campaign. We usually have to hit AC's in the high 30s, almost exclusively fight larger spellcasting opponents like dragons (with save DCs in the high 20s), and get plenty of Dispel Magic/Greater thrown our way. And our enemies dish out damage in the mid-30s on low dice rolls, plus this DM is awfuly good at rolling Criticals.
My group has no love or respect for bards, sadly. My DM's pronouncement was, "It'll die in no time" while my fellow player promised me mad props if I simply keep it alive. I suppose I am just a glutton for punishment. ;) And a diehard fan of bards...
Sangalor, thanks for the reminder that regular bards can rock and hold their own, too.
Whatever I decide to build, I'll try to remember to post an update on how the bard's doing.
Wow, thanks everyone!
I have until we gain a new level (about three-four sessions/weeks) to decide what my bard cohort will look like...
So I'm tempted to try building one of each of these bards, plus the dragon disciple, and playtest it a little! (Anything I can't use, I can pass off to my roommate, a DM who lets me build NPCs sometimes.)
This bard cohort is for a min-maxed Cthulu meets medieval England homebrewed horror campaign. We usually have to hit AC's in the high 30s, almost exclusively fight larger spellcasting opponents like dragons (with save DCs in the high 20s), and get plenty of Dispel Magic/Greater thrown our way. And our enemies dish out damage in the mid-30s on low dice rolls, plus this DM is awfuly good at rolling Criticals.
My group has no love or respect for bards, sadly. My DM's pronouncement was, "It'll die in no time" while my fellow player promised me mad props if I simply keep it alive. I suppose I am just a glutton for punishment. ;) And a diehard fan of bards...
Sangalor, thanks for the reminder that regular bards can rock and hold their own, too.
Whatever I decide to build, I'll try to remember to post an update on how the bard's doing.
Good luck with that :-)
Just because you mention those high levels: You habe not mentioned your level yet. If you achieve levels in the upper tens, consider the magician bard. I believe it is one of the nastiest classes in the game because you can get cheap wands and use them at your caster level and class level. So you get every kind of 4th level spell that can be made into a wand as a spammable consumable. Pretty nifty for things like dispel magic, dragon breath, black tentacles etc. You will rock as a damage dealer, for healing, buffing, battle field control... After all, as a bard you have a full caster level :-)
And the bard spell list itself offers more than enough protective measures for yourself: mirror image, blur, summon monster, silence (nasty debuff for casters!) etc.
One last archetype to look at: geisha. It looks weak at first, but the ability to prebuff your entire party for 10 minutes for the small price of 4 rounds of performance is really great. Particularly when you consider that you then can have silence, wild wind conditions or all kind of complicated side effects going on and it won't affect you or your party anymore :-)
Oh, and when you look at dragon disciple: check out the sensei monk / empyreal sorcerer/ dragon disciple combination. Everything runs off wisdom, you do not need armor and have no spell failure :-)
Bard cohort will be Level 15 (assuming I bring it in at Level 17, which my cleric should reach in 3 sessions or so).
But if DM skips us to Level 20 for the endgame (very likely), the bard cohort will start (and end) at Level 18. (With 96,000 gp to spend)
I'm trying to get permission to craft my own magic items or rings or wands just to make them affordable before my bard cohort enters the game. Unless you have connections, arcane stuff can be hard to get---the Churches frown on "witchcraft."
Geisha has neat flavor and I'd love to roleplay it. Heck, a whole Eastern campaign would be great! But the problem is my group virtually never sees the attack coming AND usually spends more than 10 minutes exploring before the combat occurs (usually a surprise attack). So any buff that's not 1 hour/lvl pretty much wears off too quickly for us. =(
That dragon disciple build sounds great and I'll definitely pass it on to my other DM. But I had to really argue to get permission for a bard cohort (DM didn't want to have to adjust all the CRs he already planned), and I get the feeling I shouldn't push my luck asking to change the cohort's class now.
Thanks again to all!
That Lotus Geisha sounds excellent...sadly none of my DMs has or permits the use of any books except for the three Bestiaries, Core, APG, UltMagic, & UltCombat.
These boards are anonymous, yet I feel compelled to be truthful. I have given up on introducing a bard cohort in that Pathfinder game.
Why not? Eh, I love my DM but last session reminded me why I shouldn't anticipate anyone with less than epic level stats, saves, and AC surviving. He's not malicious, it's just he spontaneously wings it with his choice of monsters and spells, if that makes sense. And, uh, things got a little strained between us and I don't want to make waves or extra demands.
This doesn't mean I won't build the bards...it just means they will be NPC's under a different DM, many levels later.
Thanks for everything!