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So it seems pretty unanimous that the alchemist is underpowered.
So my main proposed fix is to basically shift the at-will alchemy down so it matches the cantrips.
Perpetual Infusion (lesser) at level 3
Perpetual Potency (minor) at level 7
Perpetual Efficacy (greater) at level 11
Perpetual Perfection (major) at level 17
There should be an potion that give THP (1d4?), that the Churgen can get for his Perpetual option.
And Mutigenist gets medium armor. So dex doesn't have to be that high.
Thoughts?
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It's a good start, but not even close enough...
Mutagenist still doesn't have a level 1 feature, i don't think that just giving them medium armor is even nearly enough.
keep in mind that mutagenists that go into melee, already are -2 AC and -2 Ref compared to every other melee for no reason at all (they do the same damage, with lower attack, and have terrible defense, medium over light won't fix that).
it also does absolutely nothing for most of the feats being feat taxes and math fixers that everyone else is getting as baseline and actually use their Feats as extra abilities.
The perpetual that you suggest for chirurgeon needs to scale obviously, and then i would straight up remove some of the feats and put them into baseline/fields:
+Int to bombs, powerful alchemy, enduring alchemy should be baseline abilities at the very least. (and obviously replaced with new Feats that add abilities/Riders on your actions)
and give something to the mutagenist like "increase item bonuses of mutagens you consume by 1" or "gain +2 status bonus to AC while under the effects of a mutagen" or something along those lines.
lastly, Alchemy kit needs to really by 1 bulk AND include the formula book in its weight.
shroudb wrote: keep in mind that mutagenists that go into melee, already are -2 AC and -2 Ref compared to every other melee for no reason at all (they do the same damage, with lower attack, and have terrible defense, medium over light won't fix that). They also have plenty of other potions to hand out. You get more damage by giving the rogue poisons. And helping the fighter with some juggernaut potions. Or just drink some healing potions yourself.
Quote: it also does absolutely nothing for most of the feats being feat taxes and math fixers that everyone else is getting as baseline and actually use their Feats as extra abilities. True, but I'm trying to keep the changes to a minimum. Not rewrite the entire class.
Quote: The perpetual that you suggest for chirurgeon needs to scale obviously Yes.
Quote: lastly, Alchemy kit needs to really by 1 bulk AND include the formula book in its weight. That works.
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Filled out the item a bit...
Liquid Bandage: [Alchemy][Bomb][Consumable] A quick drying semi-clear fluid that can be splashed over a creature to put out fire, sooth acids, and staunch bleeding. It also harden into thin barrier, providing a little protective before flaking off. A creature can be willingly be hit by this.
Lesser: 1d4 temporary hit points for 1 minute, and they can immediately make a save against any persistent fire, acid, or bleeding damage.
Minor: 2d4, and the Flat DC is 10.
Greater: 3d4, and the flat DC is 5.
Major: 4d4, and they can immediately end persistent fire, acid, or bleeding damage.
Mellored wrote: shroudb wrote: keep in mind that mutagenists that go into melee, already are -2 AC and -2 Ref compared to every other melee for no reason at all (they do the same damage, with lower attack, and have terrible defense, medium over light won't fix that). They also have plenty of other potions to hand out. You get more damage by giving the rogue poisons. And helping the fighter with some juggernaut potions. Or just drink some healing potions yourself.
Quote: it also does absolutely nothing for most of the feats being feat taxes and math fixers that everyone else is getting as baseline and actually use their Feats as extra abilities. True, but I'm trying to keep the changes to a minimum. Not rewrite the entire class.
about the 1st quote:
yes, and all of those options have nothing to do with you being terrible in melee even with the mutagen and feat spent.
it's a straight trap to try to do so "just because you have the option", better use those reagents for someone else and just stick to your "1 crossbow strike per round" routine.
about the second quote:
unfortunately, there are so many issues, that if not a straight rewrite, a massive Errata changing at least 4-5 completely broken things on the alchemist is needed for the class to even function close to what every other class can function.
Mellored wrote: Filled out the item a bit...
Liquid Bandage: [Alchemy][Bomb][Consumable] A quick drying semi-clear fluid that can be splashed over a creature to put out fire, sooth acids, and staunch bleeding. It also harden into thin barrier, providing a little protective before flaking off. A creature can be willingly be hit by this.
Lesser: 1d4 temporary hit points for 1 minute, and they can immediately make a save against any persistent fire, acid, or bleeding damage.
Minor: 2d4, and the Flat DC is 10.
Greater: 3d4, and the flat DC is 5.
Major: 4d4, and they can immediately end persistent fire, acid, or bleeding damage.
1st, you need to set a duration for the temp hp. I think 10minutes is a nice baseline. Or maybe 1min/10min/1hour following mutagen progression.
Then i'd add +Int to all of them really.
it makes them sort of like comparable to a cantrip (it being 1d4+stat+secondary effect and progressing at +1d4 with Heighten)
Keep in mind that Perpetual, even with your houserule is delayed by a whole spell level+ AND elixirs progress slower than spells AND that temp hp don't stack, so no abuse there.
so,
1d4+Int at 1st level
2d4+Int at 3rd level
etc
at just xd4, the amount is far too little to be of any importance to ever use your normal reagents, and even for the perpetual it seems too weak (i mean, 2-3 hp at level 3 is peanuts)
I agree with the comment that the Alchemist's Bombs don't deal as much damage as even cantrips can. But it is my opinion that Paizo did not intend for the Alchemist to be a damage dealing class. They are designed to be a support/debuff class. The best bomber would be one that focuses on the Debilitating Bomb feat chain. Yes, I know that you can't even start that until 6th level but you still have bombs that inflict penalties and conditions starting at first level.
The other two Alchemists I haven't really spent a lot of time trying to build so I'm not sure what their strengths and weaknesses are. I do agree that the Mutagenists isn't the best suited character for melee combat, but I haven't taken a look at what the various mutagens even grant you.
I wouldn't complain if Paizo made a few tweeks to the class, but I don't feel as if it is so bad that no one should ever play it like one of my friends does. Of course, he is a power gamer focused on combat only so I would agree that the class is not suited for that role. But not all classes need to be suited to fit that role either.
The alchemist has one problem that I noticed not so long ago when comparing its design to other classes: its Intelligence modifier contributes to nearly nothing. For all classes the key ability score affects a notable offensive aspect of the class at the very least (no need to elaborate for martials, spellcasters gain a bonus on spell attack rolls, spell DCs and cantrip damage, a scoundrel rogue has a very strong feint technique) and the alchemist only gains more daily infused reagents from intelligence and no baseline class feature uses its class DC at all.
No matter how you slice it, there is a massive design problem if taking specific feats is mandatory to get anything out of your key ability score, outside of downtime activities.
Then there is the problem of being a support class and having rubbish weapon and armor proficiencies to match but having to use your bombs and mutagens yourself to use some of your class abilities. Seriously what exactly were they thinking when designing this class?
The alchemist is the most incoherently designed class in the game right now and nothing short of remaking it from the ground up will fix all these design problems.
FlashRebel wrote: The alchemist has one problem that I noticed not so long ago when comparing its design to other classes: its Intelligence modifier contributes to nearly nothing. For all classes the key ability score affects a notable offensive aspect of the class at the very least (no need to elaborate for martials, spellcasters gain a bonus on spell attack rolls, spell DCs and cantrip damage, a scoundrel rogue has a very strong feint technique) and the alchemist only gains more daily infused reagents from intelligence and no baseline class feature uses its class DC at all.
No matter how you slice it, there is a massive design problem if taking specific feats is mandatory to get anything out of your key ability score, outside of downtime activities.
Then there is the problem of being a support class and having rubbish weapon and armor proficiencies to match but having to use your bombs and mutagens yourself to use some of your class abilities. Seriously what exactly were they thinking when designing this class?
The alchemist is the most incoherently designed class in the game right now and nothing short of remaking it from the ground up will fix all these design problems.
I think my house rules go a long way toward making the Alchemist fairly functional and playable. It's not an entirely ground-up redesign, but it makes quite a lot of changes for the better IMHO. It gives unique uses for Int. bonuses for each Research Field, for one thing, and also adds a 4th field: Toxicologist. I also tweaked the way bombs' splash effects work, which helps a lot.
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