Basically very simple. I believe it to be the case that a Sohei can flurry with his bow and use rapid shot + many shot. Is this a correct assumption?
I notice that Zen Archer specifically says it cannot flurry + rapid shot, but Sohei doesn't seem to have such a restriction. In addition, rapid shot is used "when making a full-attack action" and flurry is a full-attack action.
What makes you think that just because a sohei is proficient with simple and martial weapons, that it can flurry with any of them? The flurry of blows ability specifically restricts flurry to special monk weapons and unarmed strikes, and nothing in the sohei archetype description overrides that. To assume that because the sohei's weapon proficiencies is different from a normal monk that he can therefore flurry with any of those weapons is spurious. The standard monk is proficient with several weapons which are not special monk weapons (club, dagger, spear, crossbow, shortspear, shortsword, javelin), yet he can not flurry with them.
Whether you can flurry with a weapon is based on whether the weapon has the special "monk" quality in its description, not whether the monk is proficient with it.
Sohei can flurry with any weapons it takes weapon training in at levels 6, 12, and 18. Bows is one of those options.
To answer the question, yes you can. Zen Archer is much better at low levels (Sohei can't even bow flurry until 6th at all), gets Point Blank Master, and Wis mod for attack rolls. Sohei archer ends up very feat starved, but in the long run if dedicated to archery can out-shoot a Zen Archer Monk.
I'd still do Zen Archer for any game that isn't going past 12 (like PF Society), though. It isn't until then that Sohei starts overtaking him, and...if you're doing straight class Sohei, he won't have the BAB for Imp. Precise Shot (I consider it a crucial archery feat...) until level 15. Zen Archer gets it at 6. So, yeah.
Mabven,
Before you spout off and rant at someone, you should perhaps actually read the class abilities?
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: , monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.
So yes, after 6th level, a Sohei who took weapons training (Bows) can flurry with a bow. Since there is no restriction on rapid shot or many shot, yes, they can take them and use them with flurry. The bows and crossbows honestly should call out 'as a Zen Archer' imho.
Yes, that's what I was referring to :)
I was just wondering, because it seems that a Sohei would be a better archer, especially with the release of the new "Guided" weapon enchantment, which basically means that you don't need strength to boost your composite bow damage.
Does guided apply to ranged weapons, though? Can't find the answer on th d20pfsrd. Also, guided doesn't work on 2H weapons, which a bow sort of is, at least when attacking with it.
And again, at high levels Sohei is definitely better at arrowdeath. But it takes a long time to get there. Most games don't go much further than where PFS does, so I think Zen Archer Monk is still fairly viable.
I believe Guided was also re-released in Curse of the Crimson Throne.
In addition, it only states that Guided doesn't work for 2h weps in the sense that one does not receive 1.5x str bonus with it. So it still works, just it might not be worth it for a greatsword wielder.
If I am missing something let me know.
The whole issue is the combination of Flurry + Rapid Shot + Manyshot. The Zen Archer is explicitly forbidden from doing it, while the Sohei has no such prohibition. Even with the attack penalty from Rapid Shot, you are going to outclass other archers at high level. Especially nice if you multiclass after 6 or 8 to something that helps pump your arrow damage.
If I am missing something let me know.The whole issue is the combination of Flurry + Rapid Shot + Manyshot. The Zen Archer is explicitly forbidden from doing it, while the Sohei has no such prohibition. Even with the attack penalty from Rapid Shot, you are going to outclass other archers at high level. Especially nice if you multiclass after 6 or 8 to something that helps pump your arrow damage.
Yup. Flurry + Rpid + Many, and also weapon training itself and gloves of dueling. And Sohei definitely seems like a contender for not going to 20 in, you lose almost all the high level class features anyway. And a full BAB class would just be so much more helpful.
I was messing around with this build; but it can't really get its stuff working all together (mounted + archery) until level ~12. Gets a nice mix of ranged, melee, and mounted abilities to use for differening circumstances, though.
Order of the Sword
Mount: Wolf
Feats
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Mounted Combat [Cavalier 1]
2 Trick Riding [Monk]
3 Rapid Shot
3 Mounted Skirmisher [Monk 1]
5 Precise Shot
7 Weapon Focus
7 Spirited Charge [Monk 2]
9 Manyshot
11 Horse Master
11 Clustered Shots [Fighter 1]
12 Deadly Aim [Fighter 2]
13 Improved Precise Shot
14 Weapon Specialization [Fighter 4]
*14 Deadly Aim ¨ Point Blank Master [Fighter 4]*
15 Deadly Aim
17 Mounted Archery?
If you just wanted to be a good archer as a Sohei, probably better to start your career as a Ranger 6, then do 8 in Sohei. Either way, Zen Archer's definitely outclassing you for pretty much the entirety of PFS play.
I would just go straight archery without the charging or mounted. It has a more consistent (and often better) damage output that I don't see the particular reason to go with mounted things.
Well, without Point Blank Master (though my build gets it through fighter levels much later), having the mount to do a single move action each round while full attacking helps greatly with keeping enemies off of you so you can keep firing without AoOs or anything. But yes, build could definitely be more focused.
Zen Archer's flurry is just as good as Rapid Shot at 1. Better actually, since it gives a BAB boost. He can also actually spend his monk bonus feats on archery feats, and even w/o being human, WILL have Precise Shot at 1st level as it's a bonus feat. So he's got a +1 to hit and ability to shoot into melee w/o a -4 over the Sohei at level 1.
Level 2: Sohei again gets nothing to help archery. ZAM (Zen Archer Monk) gets another feat, probably Point Blank Shot if he didn't take it already, and Weapon Focus. Another +1 over the Sohei.
Level 3: Sohei finally gets Precise Shot. ZAM gets Deadly Aim and the ability to not provoke while shooting and use wisdom on his attack rolls.
Please explain to me how a Sohei trumps a ZAM at archery right from the start, cause from what I'm seeing, they fall behind by quite a bit and have to spend many levels playing catch up. I admit by level 6 Sohei outright trumps ZAM for sheer rate of fire, though at significantly lower to hit bonus (extra -2 for rapid, no weapon focus, almost surely using a lower ability mod on the roll, often dealing with a -4 penalty for soft cover). No way in hell is Sohei better at archery pre-6, at least, by any measure.