Question: Bard / Arcane Trickster, Surprise Spells and Magical Items


Rules Questions


After checking the Bard Spell list in the Core, they don't have many spells that deal damage to foes, which is cool for me (Bards have more utilitarian magic which feats very well their concept) but really makes the special ability for Bards/Arcane Tricksters Surprise Spells difficult to use.

Can a character use magical items that deal damage (like a Wand of Magic Missile or a Scroll) to gain the Sneak Attack benefit added to spells from Surprise Spells?


I'm thinking you need a spell trigger, such as a command word.

Another avenue is the Arcane Blast feat. Untyped damage FTW!


APG and UM helped a lot in the damage aspect.

This FAQ says the answer is no to your original question though.


Thanks, Cheapy!

BTW, Arcane Blast is a supernatural ability, I don't know if it couts as a spell.

Where does the Feat come from? I can't find it in the Core.


Arcane Blast is a feat from the Advanced Player's Guide.

You can find it on the official PRD here.

It wouldn't count as a spell.

Here are a few spells from Ultimate Magic that would work. UM really helped the bard out for those who wanted to play a bard who fought with magic. There's also the Sound Striker archetype that helps a bit, but again, these won't be affected by Surprise Spells. The Weird Words ability is...a bit weird. and broken. But there are ways to fix it so it's better.

Chord of Shards

Ear-piercing scream

Snapdragon fireworks


Thanks! I really liked Ear-Piercing Scream.


Just a note for that one, the duration is an error, and it does not last a round per level!


In a homebrew game I was in, there was a feat we came up with -- Device Adept -- that let you substitute your own CL on items for which you had the appropriate Craft feat. [Yes, hideously overpowered, but that's homebrew for you.]

Likewise, as staffs (staves?) allow you to use your own CL -- and again as a homebrew function (not PFSOP obviously) I'd probably rule that you could get surprise spell bonus on spells out of the staff. But that's just me.

And I'd probably let you get it from scrolls, they're one-shots and spell completion seems more apt than spell trigger... again, just working on how the idea feels rather than any solid rules basis.

Grand Lodge

Maese Mateo wrote:

After checking the Bard Spell list in the Core, they don't have many spells that deal damage to foes, which is cool for me (Bards have more utilitarian magic which feats very well their concept) but really makes the special ability for Bards/Arcane Tricksters Surprise Spells difficult to use.

Can a character use magical items that deal damage (like a Wand of Magic Missile or a Scroll) to gain the Sneak Attack benefit added to spells from Surprise Spells?

The Bard/Arcane Trickster is a perfect example of a corner case in the rules. It's a perfectly legal combination but it's very far of the intended design combo of rogue/wizard or it's 2nd place, rogue/sorcerer. two configs that are very much about damage in concept.

Corner cases are pretty much that, they're valid choices that are not provided for in class builds.


@LazarX: that's ironic since the Arcane Trickster's text says that Rogue/Bards are one of the most common Arcane Tricksters.

Anyway, not that I'm complaining. I could take Sorcerer instead of Bard (the character is only Rogue for now) but I really like Bard special abilities and spells.

Also, I found that while they get very few damage-dealing spells, the ones they get are really powerful since they stun your foes and target more than 1 enemy at the same time.

For example, let's say I use Sound Burst, I cal deal 1d8 + 8d6 points of damage to several flat-footed enemies and I have a chance to stun them (meaning they can't attack me, lose their Dex bonus and I can use my weapons to Sneak Attack them on my next round).

Plus at that point the Bard will also have Shout and Greater Shout which are good spells (not to mention Healing Spells against the Undead).

Sounds pretty cool to me. =D

Grand Lodge

Maese Mateo wrote:

@LazarX: that's ironic since the Arcane Trickster's text says that Rogue/Bards are one of the most common Arcane Tricksters.

Mind you that's Paizo's text, however they're not the ones who created the original class, which has no real mention of spontaneous classes. I suspect that some folks latched on to the "trickster" part of the name and the Bard mental image locked onto that without consideration of the mechanics.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Question: Bard / Arcane Trickster, Surprise Spells and Magical Items All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions