Gendarme archetype bonus feats

[Bart Vervaet]

Dear Paizonians

The gendarme archetype for cavalier (ultimate combat) grants a number of bonus feats from a short list.

quote from SRD

Bonus Feats: A gendarme trains to be a mounted terror, almost to the exclusion of all other abilities. He gains bonus feats at 1st level, 5th level, and then every three levels thereafter, but must select these bonus feats from the following list: Improved Bull Rush, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Spring Attack, and Unseat. If the gendarme has already selected all of the listed feats, then he may select his bonus feats from those feats listed as combat feats. This ability replaces tactician, greater tactician, master tactician, and the standard cavalier's selection of bonus feats.

As it says in the first line these are meant to be feats that somehow improve mounted combat. my question: what are improved bull rush and spring attack doing in this list??

As far as I know when you do a bull rush while mounted it is actually the mount that is performing the maneuver, not the rider. So this would be a useless feat

same goes for spring attack. while mounted this is covered by ride-by attack. I could envision the mount having spring attack so it can attack as well, but for the rider this would be useless.

I already talked this over with my DM but he couldn't come up with any reasonable answer either.

Second question: Do I need to have all the prerequisite feats in order to take a feat from this list. Since it is not mentioned either way anywhere in the text I am assuming the default answer is YES. So I would need dodge and mobility in order to take spring attack.

Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this problem

grtz

Bart

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Well, Ride-By Attack only functions when you're charging, and therefore limits you to 'straight line' movement. Spring Attack carries no such restriction, allowing you make a turn after attacking or even to double back on yourself. So, while functionally similar, Spring Attack gives you a bit more maneuverability.

As for Improved Bull Rush--I did a quick search and couldn't find anything in the rules saying the mount makes the bull rush check instead of the rider, where are you getting that? At the very least, Improved Bull Rush is a prerequisite for Unseat, so it could be on the feat list for that reason.

Lastly, as a general rule, if the description of the 'bonus feats' class feature doesn't say that you can ignore feat prerequisites, then you must meet the feat prerequisites. So yes, you would still need Dodge and Mobility to take Spring Attack.

[Cult of Vorg]

Mounts don't do bull rushes for you, and IBS there is for the Unseat prereq.
Seems like dodge/mobility are a hidden feat tax if you want to get your last bonus feats.
I can only imagine that the writer thought you can spring attack and charge together, which recent errata ruled out, and it was intended to let you keep to your idiom when not mounted.. Or that there was a major typo and somehow it was put there instead of greater bull rush..
Edit: or the noncharge mounted mobility thing, that's much smarter.

[Bart Vervaet]

The part about bull rush pretty much comes from envisioning the situation. When a rider on a horse tries to push someone back, it's the horse thats doing the pushing. Since bull rush doesn't use a weapon I cannot see a way for the rider to push when he's 6 feet above the one he is trying to push.
I can't find anything in the rules to either confirm or deny this reasoning however, so your guess is as good as mine.

Anyway, I hadn't noticed that improved bull rush was a prerequisite for unseat, so that might explain things.

But if you follow this reasoning then dodge and mobility should be on this list as well

in any case, thank you for your quick reply

[Name Violation]

if they rules dont say "the mount does the bull rush" the the mount doesnt do the bull rush. its just that simple.

the character makes the bull rush, with their attack modifiers, the mount has nothing to do with it any more than a someone on a bike swinging a bst. the bike didnt make the attack roll....

[HappyDaze]

Cult of Vorg wrote:

IBS there is for the Unseat prereq.

That's pretty damn funny (unless you're the one with IBS, I suppose).

[Cult of Vorg]

Heh.

[Bobson]

Usually when there's a very restricted list of feats like this, prereqs are ignored. It's likely an oversight that they aren't in this case. But until there's a FAQ, you do have to meet the prereqs. Which leads to the possibility that you can neither take any more feats (because you don't qualify for one or more of them) and yet you can't take another feat (because you haven't taken them all).