I want to make a CR 5 NPC human skeletal champion cavalier.

[Dammerung]

Question One: Am I interpreting the CR calculation rules correctly?

1) “A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class level -1.” Since a human cavalier has no racial hit dice it would fall under this category? Therefore a level 6 human cavalier (using the heroic NPC stat creation statistics and equipment guidelines) would be a CR 5 creature.
2) When adding in the skeletal champion template (2 HD for skeletal champion + 5HD for cavalier levels) the equivalent skeleton would be 7HD or CR 4. The rules for the skeletal champion state that a skeletal champion’s CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.
3) Thus, based on this math would you conclude that the creature above has a CR of 5?

Question Two: Building a skeletal mount animal companion?
1) Are there rules or guidelines for what happens to an animal companion when a skeletal champion template (or other template for that matter) is applied? To provide some background I want to use a miniature of a mounted skeletal warrior on a skeletal horse. Wondering if I should just apply skeleton/skeletal champion to the animal companion.

Thanks
Jeremy

[EvilMinion]

I'd put the CR at 7.

Linking the skeletal champion to the normal skeletal template is kind of confusing though.

Typically, making a skeleton strips class HD. So build the skeleton first, then add the class levels. Should get the expected CR.

So human skeleton (1/3 CR)
Upgrade to skeletal champion (2 CR)
Add 5 melee related class levels (7 CR)

Just don't forget adding class levels also bumps its stats all over.

That's how I'd do it, anyway.

[Dammerung]

EvilMinion wrote:

I'd put the CR at 7.

Linking the skeletal champion to the normal skeletal template is kind of confusing though.

Typically, making a skeleton strips class HD. So build the skeleton first, then add the class levels. Should get the expected CR.

So human skeleton (1/3 CR)
Upgrade to skeletal champion (2 CR)
Add 5 melee related class levels (7 CR)

Just don't forget adding class levels also bumps its stats all over.

That's how I'd do it, anyway.

Thanks for your response EvilMinion. To be clear though, I am not suggesting applying the skeleton template to the creature. The reason I reference the skeleton in my calculation, is because in the Bestiary under the CR calculation for skeletal champion's, is specifically recommends calculating off the model below:

CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD (see page 250).

Since you can only apply the "Skeletal Champion" as an acquired template to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system, I'm not sure you could apply the skeletal champion template to a basic human skeleton given the rules on page 252 of the bestiary.

[MillerHero]

I think the skeletal champion template works like the skeleton template: lose most (if not all) class abilities. Whether it is a 15th level human fighter or a 1st level human wizard, the skeleton that is created from the remains is the same.

Consider the graveknight instead.

[Merkatz]

MillerHero, you would be mistaken. The Skeleton template clearly states you lose feats, skills, defensive abilities, special attacks, etc. before telling you what you gain. The Skeletal Champion template doesn't say you lose anything, just what you gain.

Now, the Skeleton Champion template rules are a little wonky. If you follow the "CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD (see page 250)." to the letter, then you get into a weird situation where if you take a level 18 Wizard (CR 17), and apply the Skeleton Champion template to it, it becomes more powerful, but it's CR drops to 8.

I just do original CR+1 OR normal skeleton CR+1, which ever is higher. (This keeps it so the Bestiary Skeleton Champion, a Warrior 1, remains CR 2). I find that this gives a good representation of it's power.

So in the case of a Skeleton Champion Cavalier 6, I would give it a CR 6.

For your second question, there aren't any rules that really cover what happens to an animal companion in such an instance. But if it is an NPC, you have a few options.
1) It doesn't have a companion anymore.
2) It's companion went under the same process as the master, and you apply the skeleton champion template to it.
3) It has acquired a more appropriate companion after death (such as a Nightmare).

[EvilMinion]

Dammerung wrote:

EvilMinion wrote:

I'd put the CR at 7.

Linking the skeletal champion to the normal skeletal template is kind of confusing though.

Typically, making a skeleton strips class HD. So build the skeleton first, then add the class levels. Should get the expected CR.

So human skeleton (1/3 CR)
Upgrade to skeletal champion (2 CR)
Add 5 melee related class levels (7 CR)

Just don't forget adding class levels also bumps its stats all over.

That's how I'd do it, anyway.

Thanks for your response EvilMinion. To be clear though, I am not suggesting applying the skeleton template to the creature. The reason I reference the skeleton in my calculation, is because in the Bestiary under the CR calculation for skeletal champion's, is specifically recommends calculating off the model below:

CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD (see page 250).

Since you can only apply the "Skeletal Champion" as an acquired template to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system, I'm not sure you could apply the skeletal champion template to a basic human skeleton given the rules on page 252 of the bestiary.

Heh, nah, I wasn't talking about actually applying skeleton template... I was just trying to work with the wording of skeletal champion, that seems to base alot of things off of 'as normal skeleton' type descriptors.

ie: CR = normal skeleton cr +1
Well, you can't make a 5th level cavalier into a 5th level cavalier skeleton. Its a poorly worded template is all.

If you just assume you start with a default human skeletal champion, and then add the class levels afterwards, it all makes more sense.

[Dammerung]

EvilMinion wrote:

Dammerung wrote:

EvilMinion wrote:

I'd put the CR at 7.

Linking the skeletal champion to the normal skeletal template is kind of confusing though.

Typically, making a skeleton strips class HD. So build the skeleton first, then add the class levels. Should get the expected CR.

So human skeleton (1/3 CR)
Upgrade to skeletal champion (2 CR)
Add 5 melee related class levels (7 CR)

Just don't forget adding class levels also bumps its stats all over.

That's how I'd do it, anyway.

Thanks for your response EvilMinion. To be clear though, I am not suggesting applying the skeleton template to the creature. The reason I reference the skeleton in my calculation, is because in the Bestiary under the CR calculation for skeletal champion's, is specifically recommends calculating off the model below:

CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD (see page 250).

Since you can only apply the "Skeletal Champion" as an acquired template to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system, I'm not sure you could apply the skeletal champion template to a basic human skeleton given the rules on page 252 of the bestiary.

Heh, nah, I wasn't talking about actually applying skeleton template... I was just trying to work with the wording of skeletal champion, that seems to base alot of things off of 'as normal skeleton' type descriptors.

ie: CR = normal skeleton cr +1
Well, you can't make a 5th level cavalier into a 5th level cavalier skeleton. Its a poorly worded template is all.

If you just assume you start with a default human skeletal champion, and then add the class levels afterwards, it all makes more sense.

I am interpreting the NPC CR calculation rule wrong? You are giving a 1 to 1 conversion on the level 5 Cavalier. I thought the Core Rulebook stated that NPC's with class levels should be calculated as one level lower for CR purposes?

[Dammerung]

Merkatz wrote:

MillerHero, you would be mistaken. The Skeleton template clearly states you lose feats, skills, defensive abilities, special attacks, etc. before telling you what you gain. The Skeletal Champion template doesn't say you lose anything, just what you gain.

Now, the Skeleton Champion template rules are a little wonky. If you follow the "CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD (see page 250)." to the letter, then you get into a weird situation where if you take a level 18 Wizard (CR 17), and apply the Skeleton Champion template to it, it becomes more powerful, but it's CR drops to 8.

I just do original CR+1 OR normal skeleton CR+1, which ever is higher. (This keeps it so the Bestiary Skeleton Champion, a Warrior 1, remains CR 2). I find that this gives a good representation of it's power.

So in the case of a Skeleton Champion Cavalier 6, I would give it a CR 6.

For your second question, there aren't any rules that really cover what happens to an animal companion in such an instance. But if it is an NPC, you have a few options.
1) It doesn't have a companion anymore.
2) It's companion went under the same process as the master, and you apply the skeleton champion template to it.
3) It has acquired a more appropriate companion after death (such as a Nightmare).

Thanks Merkatz - think this response best speaks to my question!

[Dammerung]

MillerHero wrote:

I think the skeletal champion template works like the skeleton template: lose most (if not all) class abilities. Whether it is a 15th level human fighter or a 1st level human wizard, the skeleton that is created from the remains is the same.

Consider the graveknight instead.

Love the graveknight template. I think I will go this route - thanks MillerHero.

[Asgetrion]

I've used several skeletal champions with fighter or warrior levels in my campaign, even some with the mudra and advanced creature templates. I think I just added appropriate levels to the CR 2 example in the Bestiary, or maybe I took a human NPC and applied the template(s) on it? I think it was the former, and I didn't notice any complications in the process...

[Drejk]

It seems that there is an error in the skeletan champion's template CR line - as point in posts above, skeletal champion is a template that is added to normal NPC and as such should caulculate CR from class levels and then adjust for the template like every other template that keeps class levels.

[MillerHero]

Merkatz wrote:

MillerHero, you would be mistaken. The Skeleton template clearly states you lose feats, skills, defensive abilities, special attacks, etc. before telling you what you gain. The Skeletal Champion template doesn't say you lose anything, just what you gain.

Yea, good catch.