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I am starting to run a relatively challenging campaign soon. The players will get lots of points to make their characters, and max HP per hit die, etc.
One of my players is going for a Lich down the road. I'm ok with that, and I told him its acceptable as long as it doesn't cause party issues (except those that lead to good roleplaying!), and he accepts all issues that arise because of his transformation (he really can't go in cities anymore, etc).
Now, another player, seeing that I approved the Lich, has demanded I approve the Vampire template for player use. While I have no problem opening options for players, especially in a high-powered campaign such as this, I think this is a horrendous choice for any PC. I warned him in graphic detail all the possible things that could go wrong, his response in each situation was "yeah, I'll have to get a magic item for that." I then warned him I will not be allowing custom magic items, and he replies he would "come up with something."
I am quite concerned for this player. I don't want him to make a bad decision and make his character useless, or unplayable, but that's exactly what he's headed for.
I am homebrewing the campaign and know for certain that there will be plenty of outdoors combats (destroying his character one round after entering), quite a few times the party will need to enter residences uninvited (potentially stopping him from even playing for multiple sessions). In addition, he too will be unable to participate in most city-centered sessions.
What should I do? I have already approved it for use, as I've approved the Lich template and do not want to "play favorites".
Well heres the problem...
YOU think it is a horrendous choice, and so are smacking him down based on your notions of what you think works. I'd be more concerned that you would be the one making sure he ended up unplayable, rather than just staying neutral and letting the cards fall where they may.
Its on him to work out where the dangers/weak points are and then working out how he is going to deal with them.
I find it unusual that you would cite the difficulty of a vampire being involved in a city based campaign, yet the Lich seems to cause no such reservations. The 'residences' part could cause some issues, but how is it a deal breaker? How does it preclude him from play? What EXACTLY counts as a residence? Why is outdoor combat so arbitrarily deadly - why are they having to mandatorily fight in the open during the daytime, in open terrain with no option to choose a better engagement?
Seems odd you'd have so many concerns about the lesser evil here, the Lich would be FAR more worrying.
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Well heres the problem...
YOU think it is a horrendous choice, and so are smacking him down based on your notions of what you think works. I'd be more concerned that you would be the one making sure he ended up unplayable, rather than just staying neutral and letting the cards fall where they may.
If I was "smacking him down", wouldn't I have just said "no" to the template in the first place? And I certainly wouldn't be here, on the forums, asking how to help him out.
I have to say, max power, unlimited player option campaigns are a pretty bad idea in the first place. There will never be any pre-built encounters that you can reliably balance against your party, even creating individual enemies for your players to fight will become a never-ending task of trying to balance against pc's which are by nature unbalanced. You may think you are being a cool dm by letting your players use classes/races/abilities that were never intended to be used by pc's, but what you are really doing is setting yourself up to be in continual conflict with your pc's.
My two Lincolns.
I'd check with him in an explicit way, even if it were mildly spoilerish: "you realize you may end up sitting out for a session or two at a stretch? That doesn't sound like fun to me"
No matter how much he says he's willing to face the consequences, if you don't spell out exactly what they may be, I think you run the risk of "you never told me it would be this bad!"
If he's still set on it, I don't think you should prevent him from making a poor choice, provided he's not the kind of person who is going to impact on other players' enjoyment when things go bad for him. I personally would add in some opportunities for his vampiricness to save the day - I think he deserves the chance to shine from time to time as well.
There are spells specifically designed to counter the sunlight problem, the residence things is a hilarious side effect that we would spend ages poking fun at him about. But would he be useless or would he need to get a sneaky invite in?
Need to break into a house, dress up like a commoner and offer to help carry some shopping, carry the bags to the doorstep and stand there till they say "come in then!", theres loads of ways around the problems which gm's need to think about, give the player a list and let him come up with his own solutions.
You might even get some good idea's for another campaign.
Well heres the problem...
YOU think it is a horrendous choice, and so are smacking him down based on your notions of what you think works. I'd be more concerned that you would be the one making sure he ended up unplayable, rather than just staying neutral and letting the cards fall where they may.
Its on him to work out where the dangers/weak points are and then working out how he is going to deal with them.
I find it unusual that you would cite the difficulty of a vampire being involved in a city based campaign, yet the Lich seems to cause no such reservations. The 'residences' part could cause some issues, but how is it a deal breaker? How does it preclude him from play? What EXACTLY counts as a residence? Why is outdoor combat so arbitrarily deadly - why are they having to mandatorily fight in the open during the daytime, in open terrain with no option to choose a better engagement?
Seems odd you'd have so many concerns about the lesser evil here, the Lich would be FAR more worrying.
No party member is a lich. The OP said that one party member has stated intentions to become a lich in the future; I presume that character is currently a necromancer. It makes for a flavorful party: a necromancer and his vampire friend. I predict they will soon be pursued by undead hunters.
Austin Morgan won't be smacking down the vampire. The vampire template will be smacking down the vampire. No vampire with those weaknesses would want to run on the campaign that the GM has planned. And the GM does not want to rewrite the campaign and has warned the player that he is not going to rewrite the campaign.
The question is, how much will the vampire and the party be able to compensate for the vampire's weaknesses? No custom magic items, but what about custom mundane items and familiar magic items? Could the vampire walk under the sun with a parasol? The template mentions direct sunlight, but not indirect sunlight. How about heavily drapped in cloth or under a second-level Darkness spell? Does standing in the rain count as immersion in running water? Could the party drag the vampire into a private residence against the vampire's curse, say by stuffing him into a bag of holding before entering the house and pulling him out once they are inside?
The player will try those, and it would be reduce arguments if Austin Morgan informs the player of the consequences before the game starts. Could the party shift their outdoor encounters to nighttime? If so, Austin Morgan should design versions of the encounters as nighttime encounters, because the party will be in control.
Mortal friends of a vampire could reduce the effect of many of his weaknesses. Vampires are mostly vulnerable because they operate alone or with other vampires. Are the other players the kind whose characters will aid the vampire in joining in, or will they rush into the private residence and leave the vampire standing outside?
If I was "smacking him down", wouldn't I have just said "no" to the template in the first place? And I certainly wouldn't be here, on the forums, asking how to help him out.
A thread titled:
What To Do About A Player Making Horrible Decisions For His Character sort of suggested to me that you were quite firmly trying to find a way to tell the guy "no". Where you appeared to be stuck was not in saying "no" which appears to be your intention, but rather trying to find a way to do so without "play(ing) favorites".
So sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick, but your intentions didn't come across as you just coming to the forums asking how to help him out, but rather you coming to the forums soliciting support and a few ways to put the kabosh on his Vampire and not playing something that you don't like (regardless of his feelings on the matter).
It might be an impractical choice, but I'm still lost on why the constraints are so tight he can't find a workaround, especially given the high power nature of the campaign. If it was low end then yeah sure, the options available to characters can be limited, but thats apparently not the deal you are running.
As above, Necroman and his Vamp buddy could be quite a fresh and interesting concept.
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The player has chosen not to use the Vampire template after all.
Thanks for the suggestions, though, everyone! There's some great ideas in this thread.
@Shifty: Ah, I think I see where the misunderstanding lies. I should have pointed out clearly that I didn't have an issue with the power level of the template, just the restrictions on the player. Sorry, I'll try to be clearer next time! :)
Need to get invited into a house? Dominate person on the owner.
Doesn't a BBEG's Lair count as a private dwelling? Sort of throws more of a wrench into things than simply an inability to enter a commoners house.