I have a game where Hellknights are a common sight (Order of the Scourge), which brings torture and interrogation. We have struggled with how skilled interrogators would get information out of players, as no mechanic really exists. I don't want to force the players to answer questions, that removes the fun. So I devised a tortore mechanic.
I want a mechanic in my game to simulate the horror of interrogation with ongoing status effects, but I also want the torture min-game to be a little fun. So far my players are completely onboard with this idea, but I want to make sure it is balanced enough.
The main hurdle that I have is balancing skills vs opposed rolls. As you can see below, there are many outs for a player to have, but it will still be very hard. It is not hard to make a lvl 1 torturer with a +13 to profession: torturer.
Again, my players have accepted this mechanic, so this is really just a balance discussion. Please provide comments below (friendly is appreciated).
Thanks in advance!!
Interrogation/Torture Mini-game
Opposed roll: Profession: Torturer vs Will save (fear effect)
If successful, PC is strong enough to resist all torture from this person. If failed, torture damage is inflicted, refer to table below. New opposed rolls are done every hour, with optional diplomacy checks (see below). Two successful will opposed saves in a row ends the torture. The torturer can also end the session at any point once satisfied with the answers.
The torturer can to select any condition up to their current tier level. Three tiers of conditions exist, the first failed will opposed roll allows the torturer to select a condition from tier 1. A failed will opposed roll by 5 or more graduates the torturer to a new tier, eligible to select conditions from the new tier as well as previous tiers. Status effects do not stack, but durations do stack.
When a condition is applied, a successful opposed Fort save vs Profession: Torturer reduces the level by 1 (same effect column). If reduced below a tier 1 effect, no condition is applied, although damage is still taken.
PC’s have the option of reducing the status effects by one level (although the tier doesn’t change) by answering a question truthfully (DC 10 sense motive from the torturer). PC’s can also choose to bluff to make the torturer believe his answer (standard bluff penalties apply, see skill).
Table (sorry about the formatting, it's hard to put tables)
Tiers Effect 1 Effect 2 Effect 3
Tier 1 Shaken Fatigued Sickened
Damage Inflicted 1D4 Non-lethal
Duration 1 day per condition applied (magical healing does not reduce penalties since these are part physical and part mental)
Tiers Effect 1 Effect 2 Effect 3
Tier 2 Staggered Exhausted (must be fatigued already) Ability Damage (1D4 to selected score)
Damage Inflicted 1D6 Non-lethal and 1d4 lethal
Duration 1 day per condition (or naturally healed for ability damage). Tier 1 conditions increase by 1D3+1 days
Tiers Effect 1 Effect 2 Effect 3
Tier 3 Blinded Deafened Ability Drain (1D4 to same ability as above)
Damage Inflicted
1D8 Non-lethal and 1D6 lethal
Duration Permanent until cured. Tier 2 conditions increase by 1D3+1 days and Tier 1 conditions increase by 1 week.
During the torture, PC’s can attempt to increase the disposition of the torture to reduce status effects to a lower tier. The PC can make a diplomacy check vs Profession: Torture to increase the attitude of the torturer. A friendly attitude reduces all status conditions by one level (although the tier doesn’t change) and a helpful attitude ends the interrogation, with a desire to help the PC. Use the attitude scale located in the diplomacy skill (Hostile→Unfriendly→Indifferent→Friendly→Helpful). Generally, torturers start at either unfriendly or indifferent. Failing an opposed roll by 5 or more decreases the attitude by one step. Hostile torturers always select the highest tier conditions.
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Torture (especially of a PC) is something that doesn't lend well to rules. Well, at least not in a system like Pathfinder, because it is largely combat-focused.
The main problem is the player doesn't feel the pain/desperation/fear his character does. Good GMing or gimmicks can alleviate that, but making a player feel those sorts of things makes for a creepier-than-normal sort of Pathfinder game.
I'd recommend using Diplomacy/Interrogation skill checks solely for 'right here right now, in one standard action' style scenes. If a player is being tortured/interrogated (or is the one doing it), over time the success rate approaches 100%. No need to really boil it down round by round, hour by hour, or what have you. Make a profession/torturer skill check and you know how long it will take before the victim inevitably breaks down.
Hmm, I'm not so sure a Will save is appropriate, I'd say with a Will or Fortitude, whichever they choose. Fighters should be good at resisting physical torture, and wizards should be good at resisting mental torture. You could have two different Profession skills, mental and physical torture. Or when they choose their Profession(torture) they must decide to be either physical or mental, however there is some overlap. Half the bonus in your chosen torture also applies to the opposite torture. So your first level torturer could have +13 in Profession (torture) +13 vs physical torture and +6 vs mental torture.
The other option is a series of options the torture picks from. Like say food deprivation, solitary confinement, water torture, shock therapy, etc. all come with modifiers. The torturer must make a daily Intimidate or Diplomacy check vs a DC equal to the victims Hostile DC to be made friendly, plus their fortitude save if Intimidate is used, or Will save if Diplomacy is used. If the check succeeds, then the victim breaks for 1d4 days. After 1d4 days, the victim makes a new a save depending on the skill used (Fort for Int, Will for Dip) against the torturers hit die + the modifiers used in breaking the victim.
For example, the victim has a 14 cha, so his Hostile DC is 27, he's a first level expert with a 12 con and 13 wis. His Fort save is +1 and his will save is +3. Therefore his Intimidate DC is 29 and his Diplomacy is 30. However, he's been deprived of food for the last 7 days, giving the torturer a +2 on his Intimidate check. Therefore, he's got a +15 bonus and needs to roll a 14 or higher to break the victim. If he succeeds, after 1d4 days, the victim makes must make a DC 13 fortitude save or stay broken. If the victim makes his save, the torturer must re-break the victim again.
deusvult: Problem with this is it forces the players to act in ways they may not want to. Originally, we were going to use intimidation for these rules, but the problem parallels with the domination issue. No one likes to have their actions dictated by the GM.
In every game I've run, when a player is dominated to do something, they loose fun in the game. I didn't want to do this here. I want to simulate something that will make the characters fearful, but still allow them to not break under pressure. They can choose different methods to try and circumvent the torture, bluff/diplomacy or high saves, so nearly every class has an option to avoid or reduce effects.
Thanks for your comments, but you didn't address any of the points raised. I want to discuss the implementation of torture mechanics. I am aware pathfinder doesn't have them, so there was no reason to point that out. Reducing the mechanic to a skill check is also not entertaining. remember, my players already approve of this... so a discussion (again) on the mechanics is the point here.
Tels: Thanks for the comments.
I had a lot of issue with the opposed rolls, I decided on saves (will and fort) only because there was not much left to do, without creating additional mechanics. WIll and Fort saves scale and allow the option to increase with feats, so that made sense to me.
I didn't want to let the player choose only because there are no other mechanics that I can think of that allow that. I can see a fighter lasting a long time (weak mind but strong body) whereas a wizard (strong mind weak body) being much harder to break, but weaker to the effects.
I also didn't want to use DC's because there is little fun in rolling and telling my players if I cracked them or not. There is something satisfying with an opposed roll.
Regarding the skill classification, I selected only one since a profession skills is supposed to encompass many different skills to allow you to perform your job. If the person decided to be a professional torture (meaning getting paid for it), I would image them knowing different techniques.
Great suggestions
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Roll sense motive to glean hidden answers when the pcs are non cooperative.
If that fails
Pc refuses to answer question ...... Chop of a hand
PC refuses to answer next question chop of their other arm.
PC refuses to answer last question smash skull in.
Interrogation complete.
Alternative, maim them and eave on the limbs. This is torture, it shouldn't be something you get out of all together. Maybe draw it out a few days between mailings, so they can heal up a bit and have a chance of being rescued.
Little extreme don't you think...
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Torture is extreme
The npc has to do more damage to them than a tough fight. He also has the pc in a helpless condition, and could they have been killed, anything is better than death.
Ability drain is where I would start, have you seen actual torture devices? At higher lvls just use magic to get the info, with death instead of undeath as their reward.
Right, but extreme is not entertaining. It is no fun to kill a character. We want to simulate loss and give pressure, not just remove a limb. No one wants their character mutilated.
Lets get back to the mechanics here.
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Thanks for your comments, but you didn't address any of the points raised. I want to discuss the implementation of torture mechanics.
No worries. Basically my suggestion was 'you're going down the wrong path to begin with.. here look at this other path, I think that looks far more suitable...'
If you like your path, by all means have fun with it. :)
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Perhaps you could add a roll for the pc to gain a clue on what they are looking for, sense motive. If successful they gain a bonus on their save and you can give them information. also a bluff roll to not accidently give away hints them selves.
Spell casters will probably be fatigued or exhausted so they can not recover spells, if not everyone.
What I was going for with my suggestions was the stories of someone who had such will power, they'd never talk. Or the guy with such a high tolerance for pain, you could dismember, flay, burn, etc. him, and he'd never say a word. However, that guy with the strong will that doesn't succumb to certain kinds of torture, would succumb to others. Same as the guy with high tolerance would succumb to mental tortures. Some people, like Monks and Paladins, would be extremely different to break, and that's how it should be. A cleric may have unshakeable faith in his god, but Clerics are far more likely to fall prey to physical suffering than a Paladin would. A fighter could be poked, stabbed, burned, flayed all you want, but lock him away in solitude, submit him to the Chinese Water Torture, constantly degrade his self-esteem and mental fortitude, and he'll break. Subject a wizard to the same mental attacks, and he'll focus/meditate through all of it. But start breaking fingers? Well, we'll see.
Imagine a Hannibal Lector type character. His real strength is getting into your head. Granted, he could quite easily physically torture you, but his strength is in his ability to figure out how you work, how you react to every stimuli. Most people in the world will have a higher fortitude than will save. His mental tortures would work great, yet it's the ones that can resist him mentally that stories are told about.
However, there have been countless horror movies with someone being tortured and escaping. Why? Because it was a fortitude save, and most people are fortitude based people.
there is magic to find the truth, so for high lvl torture is hardly an option. Torture is unreliable at best, you need to ask question whose answer can be verified directly.
Aside from this, I would use insanity rules, I believe some obscure 3.5 book had those, or Cthulu RPG uses it.
Profession vs Will seems fine, and if they loose they give the answer. Some modifiers perhaps if it is about betraying loved ones or just tell them where the treasure is buried. And if they loose, they should slowly turn insane and be haunted by these horrors, only high level magic with expensive ingredients should be able to cure this kind of insanity.
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I actually like the idea of everyone using a Will save up front. It finally lets the fighter actually use their bravery ability to show just how strong their resolve is from training (since the effect is a fear-effect). I have a couple questions/suggestions:
Can a torturer choose to apply a lower tier condition (either a second one or prolonging the duration of the first)?
By answering a question or making the torturer friendly, you can reduce the condition by one level. I assume this is before it is applied & not an existing condition (since tier 3 durations are permanent)
Once a tier 1 condition is applied, is the torturer then able to move to tier or is the only way to move up by winning the opposed roll by 5+?
I kind of like the thought of using your tier table as a progression board, where shaken then leads to staggered then leads to blinded on three consecutive wins (although that might be overkill if the tortured have low saves). This sort of leads into my first suggestion:
Maybe instead of rolling every hour, just make it 4 times per day. That way, you could use the table as a progression chart as described above, with the ultimate possibility being that after all three columns reach tier 3, one final opposed roll can be made to “break” the tortured, gleaning whatever you want from them, making them crazy (see sanity and madness section in the Gamemastery Guide), or making them beg for death (which you could or could not give them).
That’s all I can think of now, but given the chance, I might try to play test this system soon.
Profession is the art of making a good living as a torturer, dealing with the protocols and assumptions of your situation as a torturer, and what to think of when in delicate circumstances.
Heal is the skill you use to torture someone. Doing the damage is easy... making sure they do not die from your care is what is difficult.
