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I've never liked the "Vancian" spell-slot system. It's the one thing that disappoints me about Pathfinder--although I realize it's there because Pathfinder is a much-upgraded version of 3E. I'd really prefer a system where all casters burn "mana points" to cast spells. I have been playing around with the Words of Power rules in Ultimate Magic, but is there a spell-point type system out there which I can simply swap into Pathfinder and go? I don't care if it's a commercial set or home-brew as long as it fits the bill.
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That looks pretty interesting, but even at a quick glance I have to question if it was meant as a serious nerf for sorcs who barely get any more points than a wizard in this sytem. At max level, based on their costs, you could cast maybe one more spell than a wizard of equal level. It throws one of the main advantages of the sorc to a near negligible amount of difference between the two.
Even in 3.5 when we used spell points we bumped sorcs up by 50% of what they have listed there.
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Whether you want both sorcerers and wizards with a amana point system can depend on a lot of factors.
For example, if you use a mana system where a wizard still has to prepare spells to cast them (but prepared spells don't stop being available, they just burn mana) then sorcerers and wizards are still very different. And under such a system, if sorcerers don't get more spells/day, they tend to be at a disadvantage.
I have played with a system where wizards do not prepare spells in advance, but every time they cast a spell it becomes more expensive for them to cast it again. Under such systems, wizards have a breadth of options as they take time to learn more spells, but they can't afford to spam fireball three times in a row as well as sorcerers. Again, the classes act very differently, and in this case they can be given the same number of mana points.
I have certainly played in games where wizards very rarely have time to pick up more than their 2 free spells known per level. When this is the case, a sorcerer's power becomes not that they don't have to prepare spells, but that they end up with more spells known. However that advantage tends not to kick in until very high level so unless there's another factor (like limiting wizards 2 free spells learned per level to Core Rulebook spells and letting sorcerers choose freely) it's a pretty minor point. Also this one is extremely campaign-specific so it'd be tough to write :generic" rules to cover it.
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On a mana point system there really is no point to having a sorcerer class..... at all.
More like there is no reason to have a sorcerer class regardless of the system used.
However, the spell point system can still differentiate the two, by having the wizard allocate all his spell points at the start of the day, and letting the sorcerer spend them on the fly. Which I believe the UA system does.
Look up these two supplement books:
-True Sorcery
-Legends of Sorcery
Both skill-based approaches. Kinda like rolling an attack roll.
EDIT: what the hell, I'll find some links. Here:
http://www.rpgobjects.com/index.php?c=product&p_id=181
and
http://www.greenronin.com/store/product/grr1707e.html
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I've never liked the "Vancian" spell-slot system. It's the one thing that disappoints me about Pathfinder--although I realize it's there because Pathfinder is a much-upgraded version of 3E. I'd really prefer a system where all casters burn "mana points" to cast spells. I have been playing around with the Words of Power rules in Ultimate Magic, but is there a spell-point type system out there which I can simply swap into Pathfinder and go? I don't care if it's a commercial set or home-brew as long as it fits the bill.
The Thieves' World magic system (as in Thieves' world Player Guide by Green Ronin) has a mana-gathering check, based on a modifier similar to the Base Attack Bonus - as it's both class- and level- based.
It's a sort of hybrid between the skill check and the point-based systems.The check must beat a DC value set by the spell level, the caster affinity with that kind of magic (spellcasting and rituals), the area magic level, etc.
A check that doesn't gather enough mana to cast the spell is not wasted, as it decreases the DC of a subsequent check.
The caster can start the day with some "ready to go" spells, as he can gather beforehand a limited amount of mana, and he can canvert the gathered mana on the fly for a different spell (tactical choices).
There's a simple appendix for translating 3.5 spells into this system, and it's pretty much as good for the PFRPG system.
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No, the UA system lets the wizard use spell points to cast at will from the spells he's prepared that day.
I keep getting that confused for some reason. Maybe because it just makes so much more sense than giving wizards more of the sorcerer's shtick than they already have.
Why is there no reason to have a sorcerer class in the core system? It seems a nice alternative to prepared casting.
I also like the various bloodline fluff and powers. I wouldn't want to lose those by ditching the sorcerer in a spell point system.
Because you could just have a 'Mage' class, who chooses prepared or spontaneous casting at character creation. Schools and bloodlines could be selectable class features of the same class with a varied amount of overlap.
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Look at Trailblazer for how to handle that. They have a unified spell progression chart, and different classes get bonus spells per day or spells prepared as a class feature. Which could easily be a simple class choice, no different than the Fighter Weapon Training. You don't consider a Ranger with FE: Human a different class than one with FE: Undead, so why not have a Mage (Breadth of Knowledge) and a Mage (Breadth of Power)?
Has anyone every tried a life-based (hp, CON, etc) spell casting system, like in the Inheritance series? I kind of like the idea that casters must provide the energy for the spell by sapping energy from their own body or from some other source of energy. I could see how it would work better as a literary element than a game mechanic, but has anyone ever tried it? How did it go?
Yep, I know of two: Psionics Unleashed by Dremscarred Press and Misfit Studios "The Spellweaver". Psionics is point-based, the Spellweaver is skill-based. Review of the latter coming up tomorrow!
Edit: SGG's Ultimate Options:Arcane Discoveries and Sorceror's Options: Beyond Bloodlines feature point-based archetypes. :)
Look up these two supplement books:
-True Sorcery
-Legends of SorceryBoth skill-based approaches. Kinda like rolling an attack roll.
I wish EVERYTHING was skill-based. Spellcasting, Skill Usage, To-Hit and Armor Class (or Defense, if you prefer).
I always disliked the "fire and forget" method. In 3.x the explination changed a little to spells were prepped in study and released at the oportune moment.
If you like manna points just make all spell casters spontaneous and turn spell slots into points a 1st level spell slot is worth 1, a 2nd level spell slot is worth 2 and so. This will give you your manna pool. So if your wizard has 3 1st level slots and 2 2nd level slots he has 7 manna points. Just like the spell slots the cost for a spell is based on level a second level spell costs two points, a third level spel 3 points and so on. So your wizard with 7 points can cast any combination of spells he knows up to 7 points.
Poof manna points.
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I have played with a system where wizards do not prepare spells in advance, but every time they cast a spell it becomes more expensive for them to cast it again. Under such systems, wizards have a breadth of options as they take time to learn more spells, but they can't afford to spam fireball three times in a row as well as sorcerers. Again, the classes act very differently, and in this case they can be given the same number of mana points.
That sounds interesting.
For almost all of my gaming I was playing using mana point spell systems. They ranged from a very simple "1 spell level costs 1 mana point" to ones which had part of the cost associated with the attempt to cast the spell, and part with powering the spell effects should the casting succeed. The most complex one (which I ran, with a lot of help from a computer by my side to automate record keeping) also spread mana point recovery out over multiple days; the mana for low-level spells regenerated overnight, but it took longer than that to recover after casting a high-level spell.I've just picked up Ultimate Magic, and am thinking about seeing what I could do as a variation based on Words of Power.
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Has anyone every tried a life-based (hp, CON, etc) spell casting system, like in the Inheritance series? I kind of like the idea that casters must provide the energy for the spell by sapping energy from their own body or from some other source of energy. I could see how it would work better as a literary element than a game mechanic, but has anyone ever tried it? How did it go?
Well, many spells in Call of Cthulhu work like this. In addition to sapping magic points and (almost always) sanity, most of them also damage eitiher one (or more) of your ability scores or your hit points.
Another poster had mentioned the BESM d20 Advanced Magic supplement. From what I understand, casting magic is a skill. Make a skill check to a cast a spell. Metamagic feats bump up the DC. Fail the skill check DC and suffer subdual damage as drain, sort of like exhausting yourself to an extreme, and unable to cast the spell. Still have spell slots, but more to say how many spell slots it requires to cast a given spell as a way to measure the power or level of the spell.
There is also the Gemstone Magic from RA Salvatores Demonwars Saga campaign setting. Grasp a 'special' gem, make an appropriate Gem Wielding skill check to determine the intensity of effect. Eventually learn how to wield 2 or more gem stones to combine for different effects.
Check out the Spellweaver discussion under new products.
It's very interesting ;)
I wish EVERYTHING was skill-based. Spellcasting, Skill Usage, To-Hit and Armor Class (or Defense, if you prefer).Look up these two supplement books:
-True Sorcery
-Legends of SorceryBoth skill-based approaches. Kinda like rolling an attack roll.
I'm with you.
The Midnight setting had a really good spell point system. I like it better than the one in Unearthed Arcana because the points earned weren't exponential.
See also this thread.