I need some clarification two rules that are both specific to a particular ability (the Dirge Bard's Secrets of the Grave) but will likely also answer similar questions about other abilities.
Question the first: Since Secrets of the Grave states that it allows the character to affect undead and mindless undead with mind-affecting spells, does this exclude the ability to affect them with a spell-like or supernatural ability that mimics the effect of a spell?
For example, let's say a PC happened to multi-class Dirge Bard and cleric, and used a variant channel from Ultimate Magic in the form of channel energy: Madness(Su) (failed save inflicts confusion on harm). Would Secrets of the Grave then allow the confusion ailment to affect undead when hit by the channeled positive energy to harm them? Or does it have no effect because technically its an Su not a spell?
Question the first, part b: What if a different ability did something similar, but was not a "channel" but still an Su? What then?
Question the first, part c: What if it were an Sp or an Ex instead of an Su?
Question the second: Secrets of the Grave allows the Dirge Bard to take an arcane necromancy spell periodically. Does that mean you can take a spell from a higher slot? Obviously that seems wrong, but RAW, I mean Rules exactly as Written, directly in this ability indicate that you can take any spell whatsoever from that list, regardless of rank. There's probably a clause in another rule preventing this, but if anyone knows the source for that clause that it would be great.
setzer9999 wrote: Question the second: Secrets of the Grave allows the Dirge Bard to take an arcane necromancy spell every other level. Does that mean you can take a spell from a higher slot? Where do you get every other level?
Secrets of the Grave (Ex): "In addition, he may add one necromancy spell from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class to his list of spells known at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter."
When you take your second level of Dirge Bard, you can add one necromancy spell from another class to your list of spells known.
Every four levels (of Dirge Bard) after that, you can do it again.
So sure you could pick a level 9 spell, but if you can't cast it, it doesn't do much to help you.
Though the first half of the response was a *little* off topic and more about a more or less typo of mine (fixed btw) it does still leave me wondering about the rules questions.
I'd still very much like to know the answer to all of these questions, not just that one, but as for how learning spells ahead of time could help you... no, you can never use a level 9 spell, but you can EVENTUALLY use up to a level 6 spell. So the spell wouldn't help you in the short term, but if you learned a level 6 spell when you were level 2, and another one at level 6, and then another one at level 10 and 14...
You see, then when you get to level 16, you would already have learned 4 level 6 spells besides the one you get for just getting to level 16! This seems like an exploit. You don't have to do it just with such high level ones, what about just taking some level 3 spells early and waiting until 7th level to benefit?
It just seems like a way to exploit delaying the use of the spell in the short term and getting a possibly unintended boost later on. Not sure if its even technically legal to do though.
I'm sure the intent was that they'd have to be able to cast it, if taken from the Wizard's spell list.
I don't see what's so bad about them choosing to not get any benefit from the spell they choose until a later point.
Your Madness example would definitely not benefit from Secrets of the Grave.
As written, only spells are affected by the ability, so SUs are not. The fact that it's a channel doesn't matter.
An Ex would definitely not be affected.
The only argument I could possibly see is that it should affect the bard's bardic performance class feature too (especially Suggestion).
I am not going to touch the SLA question.
In a weird way, you did touch the SLA question by suggesting that bardic performances, like Suggestion(Sp) might be differently affected. So, it seems that clearly an Su or Ex cannot benefit from SotG because they are not spells.
An Sp though is, well... exactly that... "kind of" a spell. So, I'm still in the dark if an Sp can benefit from SotG.
As for gaining too high a level of spell, its not so much that it can be exploited that I'm getting at, though that does concern me, its more a question of if it is strictly at all legal to even take a spell you can't cast for your SotG granted spell.
It seems legal, yes. There's no general rule for this sort of thing.
If my guess on the intent for the Bardic Performances working with SotG is correct, then I would assume they are specific exceptions (due to the fluff).
So it wouldn't have anything to do with it being an Sp then? So if SotG worked with Bardic Performances, it would just be because they are Bardic Performances, but that isn't in the RAW?
Not to undermine my own thread, but I am still not clear on the difference between a spell and an Sp then other than that one is tied to your spells known/prepared tables and the other isn't. I can't decipher if there is any other difference between them or not...
Everything I've said about the bardic performance and the ability is pure speculation.
A new question about SotG:
Can a Dirge Bard cast sleep on the undead? SotG states that the spell should have an effect on the undead, but the spell itself goes out of the way to not only be mind-affecting, but also state that undead cannot be targets of the spell. SotG doesn't say you can now "target" undead with mind-affecting spells, it says you may "use" such spells to affect undead.
Since "use" is loosely defined, it can be argued that this could be interpreted as now allowing sleep to be used on undead... but it could also be argued that the word "use" is only referring to the mind-affecting part of the spell, and not the "targetability" of the spell, so even though it should work, it can't target the undead.
More frustrating still is that the spell is worded poorly because it actually doesn't "target" anything anyway... its an AoE burst.
I'd rule that SotG can allow the bard to put the undead to sleep in a home game all day long, since the RAI of SotG seems to clearly be that the bard now knows how to affect undead this way, and you don't "target" anything anyway... but is there an official ruling on SotG and sleep that would hold up in PFS?
I have these same questions. No answers anywhere to be found?
James Jacobs answered me on a question like this a while back:
James Jacobs wrote: mplindustries wrote: The Secrets of the Grave ability you get with the Dirge Bard archetype states:
"A dirge bard may use mind-affecting spells to affect undead as if they were living creatures, even if they are mindless (though spells that affect only humanoids do not affect them, even if they were humanoids in life)."
What exactly does treating them like a living creature actually do?
If I cast Sleep on some zombies, will it put them to sleep or does their immunity to sleep still block it?
I know Color Spray with Secrets of the Grave could blind a zombie, but could it stun them? Knock them unconscious?
Could a mind affecting spell with a Fortitude save (like Phantasmal Killer) still work on an Undead creature with Secrets of the Grave?
How many Undead immunities does this ability bypass?
What it does is let your spells affect them as if they weren't immune to them.
That means sleep puts zombies to sleep. Color spray blinds and stuns them. Phantasmal kill can destroy them.
It bypasses all mind affecting immunities for undead, in other words.
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