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Hello Everyone,
Relatively new to this game/forum and just looking for some advise on creating a really solid Paladin. I'm sure everyone has some popular picks out there. Looking more along the lines of being in the actions and swinging a heavy 2 hander.
I guess my question is what are some of the more popular choices when making a Paladin? For feats Power attack, Furious Focus and Cleave seem to come up a lot. Ive seen a lot of nice builds and recommendation for other classes, just nothing recent on Pallys. If anything I was leaning more towards the Undead Scourge since it seems like a pretty solid choice.
Even a link to similar posts would suffice!
Many thanks!
The Step Up feat line (eventually, if something 5' away from you, you can move 10 feet (ending adjacent to the creature) and attack that creature as an immediate action, and the movement doesn't count against you at all) is an absolute blast as a paladin. If you go two handed, you'll be a huge threat, and with those feats, it'll be hard for things to get away from you.
I'm going to piggyback onto this thread rather than start my own because I came to the forums today looking for exactly this. I'm very familiar with fighters, but I've decided to step into the arena of the Paladin for the first time and I'm having trouble planning out my feats.
The character in question will be a sword and board type relying on a very high charisma and the bare minimums in the other attributes. Most times she'll serve as the group's secondary fighter, either backing up the tank or defending the casters - that is until the Boss fights come at which time roles will reverse and she'll get her chance to shine.
With the potential bonuses to attack inherent in the class, Power Attack seems a no-brainer, as does Weapon Focus and Shield Focus. After that I'm unsure... I think I've decided to take the Dazing Assault/Stunning Assault option when they come available - I'm trying to figure out if the 'Death or Glory' feat synergizes as well with them as I think it does.
I'm also mulling the Combat Reflexes/Standstill pairing, again for the role mentioned above. Would the Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will feats be worth taking or would that be overkill on a high-Charisma Paladin?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Combat reflexes ain’t much good without decent DEX, at least a 14.
Hospitaler is a very good Archetype. Extra lay on hands is very nice.
Weapon focus isn’t so good, unless you know fersure you’re never gonna run into some special weapon.
Weapon focus isn’t so good, unless you know fersure you’re never gonna run into some special weapon.
I'm not sure what you mean. When is having a better chance to hit on every attack considered 'not so good'?
With ONE weapon. Ok, let us say the Pally gets WF in greatsword, then finds a Holy Avenger. Just lost a feat, or sells off a great weapon?
Dedication to a deity's favored weapon is an easy way of avoiding wasting a weapon focus feat. If your GM never provides an upgrade, then there are issues aside from wasting a feat that are going on.
Also, weapon groups are a much better more fair and realistic way of playing the game.
Of course, the DM should provide a weapon upgrade, but he doesn’t have to make it as nice as a placed treasure. Weapon groups are not PF, and even so then you have the problem of the lance Pally finding the holy Avenger.
Look, melee types are nerfed enough, but when the DM hands out some truly phat lewt, you need to be able to use it.
Any more builds/feats? Perhaps starting from 1 to even level 5? Ive seen some nice ones for cavaliers. Very detailed. Kinda looking for the same thing. Or someone who has played one and list what they took, what worked and what they would have changed?
I appreciate the posts Shadowcatx, Vendis and DrDeth.
Hopefully Wiggz and I can roll some solid pallys!
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Vanilla paladin works just fine, I find it that archetypes screw some of your interesting abilities later on.
Don't go for Weapon Focus... Power Attack&Furious Focus, Greater Mercy - I'd say these are your best picks at low level.
As Vendis said, Step Up chain can be a good pick, but depends on the encounters your GM throws at you.
Extra Lay on Hands - situational, but staying alive and swinging your twohander for terrible terrible damage is your job (pair it with meditating Hero's Defiance spell)
Ultimate Mercy - if you're lacking a cleric (at higher levels)
what do we think about the divine hunter archetype?
what do we think about the divine hunter archetype?
Yeah someone mentioned ranged pally seems to work well. I lol'd.
I think Divine Hunters are pretty cool.
It is very hard for me to try to go with Oath of Vengeance, though, since it is so ridiculously good. (who doesn't want to smite more?)
Just don't go Empyrial Knight... even if you want to go with that kind of concept you are better going vanilla and representing it another way...
I can't get over sacrificing +Cha to all saves for... Learning a language.
+1 to Step-Up
Although sometimes I don't find it worth it to continue the rest of the tree, the first one is the most important generally.
I am also fond of Unsanctioned Knowledge, but that is for higher levels and not for every build.
OOH and Antagonize is SOO fun for a Paladin. Especially a big 2H wielding one...
You can also do some cool things with Eldritch Heritage, but that is super feat-heavy for a feat-starved pally
what do we think about the divine hunter archetype?Yeah someone mentioned ranged pally seems to work well. I lol'd.
something about a ranged paladin of Erastil fascinates me
Ranged paladins can be very very solid.
A two hander paladin is the most basic and a highly effective build. It's by far the most feat efficient since you have room for more than what you actually need. Power attack, Cleave, then get the mighty cleaving enchantment on your weapon as soon as possible for the third attack (which can share a target with the second attack). Lunge is a must as soon as you can get it because you have no mechanic to get a full attack after a move, so you either need to make the most out of your 5' or be working your cleave very well.
Unsactioned Knowledge is nice, but it requires a 13 int, and most paladins just don't have the points to make that happen. You also need to know the spell lists of other classes pretty well, overall it's an awesome feat but probably not for a new player.
As far as weapons go Greatsword is my favorite, the falchion is technically better though by the numbers. No real losers in that choice.
Yeah someone mentioned ranged pally seems to work well. I lol'd.
I wish I could be there the first time you see a well optimized archer unload and you realize you lol'd too soon. Archery is as overpowered in PF as it was in actual history.
Lastoth, Interzone, Avenger - I appreciate the time you took to share the words of wisdom. This was what I was looking for! many thanks.
So back at it, would Oathbound > Oath of Vengeance be considered one of the better archetypes? I want to try something away from the vanilla, but not gimp myself. I thought Undead Scourge was great, but I guess since I haven't played much I can't really say.
As for feats there were many mentioned but these seem to be the just of it:
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Greater Mercy
Cleave
Lunge and/or Step-up (should you go both, or one or the other?)
((Optional))
Antagonize for bonus fun.
Unsanctioned Knowledge if you happen to have the INT for it. (Could you run Color spray with that? lol)
Eldritch Heritage if I'm starved for feats.
Ultimate Mercy / Extra Lay on Hands - for parties lacking heals
I can seem myself going to the greatsword. Love the idea.
Also humoring the ranged pally (small chuckles, but respectfully) how would one build such a thing? What kind of weapon would you use. Crossbow? More of a demon hunter type thing?
A solid archer in pathfinder almost never uses a crossbow.
Composite longbow (14+ str) for a good damage bonus, no feats blown on reloading your weapon and you can fire all day. Standard ranged feats... point blank, precise, rapid shot, many shot, the ranged power attack (forget the name)
The feat Weables was thinking of is Deadly Aim.
And yeah, comp. longbow, standard ranged feats, and you are going to do some serious damage.
In my opinion the Oathbound (Vengeance) archetype is the most powerful, as long as you don't mind being more combat-focused, and not so much healing/support (but that sounds exactly what you want to do, so perfect!) Being able to Smite many times a day is fantastic.
I would probably take Step-Up over Lunge myself, but both if you have room wouldn't hurt.
Undead Scourge is great if you expect to see undead at least semi-regularly, but the Oath of Vengeance is going to be useful a lot more consistently (anything evil is getting smote)
Greatswords are definitely really good. As much as the Falchion can be better I just always find I HATE rolling d4's (even if there are twice as many :P) Although probably the other weapon I would want to use if my GM allows is the Nodachi... Really really great weapon that one.
(2handed, d10 damage, crit 18-20, Piercing OR Slashing, Brace)
Although probably the other weapon I would want to use if my GM allows is the Nodachi... Really really great weapon that one.
(2handed, d10 damage, crit 18-20, Piercing OR Slashing, Brace)
High crit range on a paladin is fun. With a high crit range keen weapon you can be doubling your smite damage bonus about a third of the time.
Lunge is really nice for enclosed spaces and parties with a larger melee contingent, and if you're not carrying a shield and having super high AC, being in the second line is ideal. Personally, I'm also tempted to use a reach weapon anytime I have the strength for it; a bardiche is 19-20, with reach. Wear a spiked gauntlet to threaten adjacent.
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Oath of Vengence is the most powerful, Tactical Pallies second. Oath pallies go off-the-chains, and Tactical effectively gives everyone in your group a free teamwork feats (and teamwork feats are actually pretty insane if everyone has it). Neither trade off anything particularly relevant, though both get a slightly worse "BBEG" killer 11th level power.
Oath pallies are best as archers generally; and Halfling archers specifically (the 2 damage loss is made up quickly, and early you make a great tank). Tacticals are best as front tanks, and need their animal companions to take the same teamwork feats they do.
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For a 2-handed Paladin, the Eldritch Heritage feats (Orc Bloodline) will give you very nice melee combat boosts when you reach high level (+2 STR at lvl 11, +4 at lvl 15, up to +12 at lvl 17). Even the required Skill Focus : Survival will be useful in most campaigns.
Eldritch Heritage
You are descended from a long line of sorcerers, and some portion of their power flows in your veins.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Skill Focus with the class skill of bloodline selected for this feat (see below), character level 3rd.
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
You only gain the first bloodline power from eldritch heritage, so you won't get extra STR from this feat.
Improved Eldritch Heritage and Greater Eldritch Heritage give you the other powers
For a 2-handed Paladin, the Eldritch Heritage feats (Orc Bloodline) will give you very nice melee combat boosts when you reach high level (+2 STR at lvl 11, +4 at lvl 15, up to +12 at lvl 17). Even the required Skill Focus : Survival will be useful in most campaigns.
This is an interesting approach and something I would not have considered. It smacks a little of cheese, but at the same time a very interesting character could be created out of an Orcish bllodline, an ancestor from a forgotten (or suppressed) branch of the family.
The first feat, Eldritch Heritage, will be essentially useless as it relies on Sorcerer levels as written, unless you decide to take a level or two in that class. I wouldn't.
The second feat, Improved Eldritch Heritage, grants 'Strength of the Beast' as described below. You can't take this until 11th level.
Strength of the Beast (Ex): At 9th level, you gain a +2 inherent bonus to your Strength. This bonus increases to +4 at 13th level, and to +6 at 17th level.
The third feat, Greater Eldritch Heritage, grants 'Power of Giants' as described below. This feat can't be taken until 17th level.
Power of Giants (Sp): At 15th level, you may grow to Large size as a standard action. At this size you gain a +6 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You may return to your normal size as a standard action. You may remain in this size for up to 1 minute per character level per day; this duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.
All-in-all not a bad endgame... might make a pretty bad-@ss Half-Orc Champion of Kord or some such...
Here's an example I just threw together:
Human Paladin (Oathsworn - Oath of Vengeance)
Attributes:
STR 16 (+2 Race, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th)
INT 10
WIS 13 (+1 at 20th)
DEX 12
CON 14
CHA 14
Feats:
1st - Power Attack, Furious Focus
3rd - Extra Lay on Hands
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
7th - Skill Focus: Survival
9th - Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline)
11th - Dazing Strike
13th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline)
15th - Extra Lay on Hands
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline)
19th - Extra Lay on Hands
So at 13th level you will have an unmodified 25 Strength, and 28 Strength at 17th level. At 17th, when you assume Large size, you have an unmodified Strength of 34, Dexterity of 10, Constituion of 18 and a +4 Natural Armor bonus. Nice. I don't even want to think about how much damage a Two-Handed, Power Attacked, Evil Smited Critical Hit might do under those circumstances.