Unspecified Armor Bonuses

[Tarma]

If something gives a boost to AC, and doesn't say otherwise does it boost Flat-Footed and Touch? There's quite a few bonuses that don't say either way

[cwslyclgh]

what unspecified bonuses are you referring to?

[Ashenfall]

Tarma, not necessarily. You need to recalculate AC with every mod you get (which makes it a pain).

Also, I don't think I'm aware of any unnamed AC bonuses. (not that they don't exist)

[Dennis Baker]

All 'armor' bonuses apply to flat footed AC.

Armor bonuses do not apply touch AC unless they are a force effect or otherwise explicitly say they apply to touch AC.

Edit: For the rules lovers out there:

Combat Chapter wrote:

Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus.

There are exceptions, but they list it explicitly

[Tarma]

Dennis Baker wrote:

All 'armor' bonuses apply to flat footed AC.

Armor bonuses do not apply touch AC unless they are a force effect or otherwise explicitly say they apply to touch AC.

Edit: For the rules lovers out there:

Combat Chapter wrote:

Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus.

There are exceptions, but they list it explicitly

But that's the thing, these bonuses aren't Armor, shield, or natural armor.

While pretty rare, there is the insight bonus to AC. More common is the Morale or Competence bonus to AC. And the Sacred bonus actually comes up pretty often. None of those say in the definition of the bonus, but have abilities that boost AC.

[Archaeik]

I've never heard of a morale/competence bonus to armor, only to DODGE, which only turns off when denied dexterity to AC.

Insight and sacred should both apply to touch. (I imagine insight is close to a dodge, but it doesn't turn off with dex because it's insight, and sacred, well that's similar to deflection - not trying to confuse the two)

I know I've seen some other untyped bonuses to AC, but can't specifically remember them right now.

[Bobson]

Tarma wrote:

Dennis Baker wrote:

All 'armor' bonuses apply to flat footed AC.

Armor bonuses do not apply touch AC unless they are a force effect or otherwise explicitly say they apply to touch AC.

Edit: For the rules lovers out there:

Combat Chapter wrote:

Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus.

There are exceptions, but they list it explicitly

But that's the thing, these bonuses aren't Armor, shield, or natural armor.

While pretty rare, there is the insight bonus to AC. More common is the Morale or Competence bonus to AC. And the Sacred bonus actually comes up pretty often. None of those say in the definition of the bonus, but have abilities that boost AC.

Look at the phrasing. You have an AC. It has all the bonuses you get to AC. When you're the target of a touch attack, armor, shield, and natural armor aren't included. Therefore everything else is. The quote actually continues with: "All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally."

Incorporeal touch attacks also ignore cover, but don't ignore any bonuses granted by force effects.

If you're flat footed, you only lose your Dex bonus and anything that says you lose it if flat-footed.

[Dennis Baker]

Tarma wrote:

But that's the thing, these bonuses aren't Armor, shield, or natural armor.

The title says...

Quote:

While pretty rare, there is the insight bonus to AC. More common is the Morale or Competence bonus to AC. And the Sacred bonus actually comes up pretty often. None of those say in the definition of the bonus, but have abilities that boost AC.

Maybe if you had a specific example it would make more sense. I don't believe there are any published items that have a +1 sacred bonus to AC. An insight bonus (such as from the Ioun Stone) would affect touch AC... not sure about FF off the top of my head.

[StabbittyDoom]

Since both "Touch" and "Flatfooted" are defined as "Normal, minus X", anything not listed under X is included regardless of type.

The types of AC (as far as I know) are:

Normal
Flat-footed (-dexterity -dodge)
Touch (-armor, -shield, -natural armor)
Flat-footed touch (-dexterity -dodge -armor -shield -natural armor)
Incorporeal touch (-armor -shield -natural armor -cover; force effects that supply armor bonuses still apply)
Incorporeal flat-footed touch (-armor -dexterity -dodge -shield -natural armor -cover; force effects that supply armor bonuses still apply)

Note that while dodge bonuses aren't listed as negated by the flat-footed condition (or similar), they ARE noted as being lost any time you lose your dexterity bonus, so I listed them above anyway.

(I didn't bother listing "unconscious" in the above.)

The two most common bonuses that apply to all AC forms are deflection and size. Luck, sacred, insight and profane all exist, but are rare. Sacred and Profane are at least non-trivial in proclivity due to the Protection judgement from the Inquisitor class, though that has its own condition for removal (be unconscious, frightened, panicked, stunned, etc).

The only untyped AC bonus I can think of is the monk bonus, which itself has special conditions for removal (armor use, shield use, helpless or above light load).

TL;DR - If nothing says you lose it, you don't.

[Poit]

Another bonus that would apply to all forms of AC is a trait bonus, such as from Defender of the Society.

[Archaeik]

Hmmm, that's arguably an armor bonus.
Sure, it would stack with everything, but you'd still lose it on touch attacks.

However, RAW, I do suppose since trait bonuses aren't well defined, and it doesn't say it's specifically an armor bonus, there's no rules way to negate it. Pretty powerful for a trait, considering Dodge(feat) is countered by flat footed and a different trait that gives +1 natural armor is ignored by touch...

[cwslyclgh]

if it was an armor bonus it wouldn't stack with everything (it wouldn't stack with other armor bonuses).

[Dennis Baker]

I think what he means is it's an increase in the armor bonus rather than directly enhancing the characters AC. It's not worded that way though.

[Archaeik]

I could see it as a dodge bonus or an armor bonus...
and the way I read the trait section, trait bonuses stack with everything except other trait bonuses (otherwise some of them would not be functional/useful)

so a trait bonus to armor(when wearing medium or heavy in this case) increases the armor bonus from that item

my point above being moreso that any trait should never be better than a feat

[wraithstrike]

Armor bonuses are no different than any other bonus to AC. You don't get bonus to bonuses. Even when you magically improve armor it is called an armor enhancement bonus which stacks with a regular armor bonus so in short a trait bonus to AC is not a trait bonus to an armor bonus.

The ability in question specifically says it is a bonus to AC, not a bonus to an armor bonus, and I do agree it is pretty strong for a trait, but it is what it is.

Quote:

Benefit: You gain a +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.

It specifically calls itself out as a bonus to AC. I guess the limitation of only applying when wearing heavy or medium armor is supposed to bring it down a notch.

[Dennis Baker]

The medium/ heavy armor thing limits who can grab it but it doesn't really make it less nice for them. Also, it appears it's limited to Fighters only (Though I'm not certain on that, I don't own the faction guide).

Dodge qualifies you for a bunch of feats and applies to CMD which does come up a fair amount.

Regardless, this isn't the only trait which pushes the power level to compete with feats.

[Grick]

wraithstrike wrote:

Armor bonuses are no different than any other bonus to AC. You don't get bonus to bonuses. Even when you magically improve armor it is called an armor enhancement bonus which stacks with a regular armor bonus

If this were true, wouldn't you still gain the 'armor enhancement bonus' to AC vs touch attacks?

"When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus."

If it's not an "Armor Bonus" (or Shield Bonus or Natural Armor Bonus) then it applies to touch AC.

"Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses)."

So either we've been running it wrong forever, or the Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses to your Armor Bonus to AC.

[LazarX]

wraithstrike wrote:

Armor bonuses are no different than any other bonus to AC. You don't get bonus to bonuses. Even when you magically improve armor it is called an armor enhancement bonus which stacks with a regular armor bonus so in short a trait bonus to AC is not a trait bonus to an armor bonus.

The ability in question specifically says it is a bonus to AC, not a bonus to an armor bonus, and I do agree it is pretty strong for a trait, but it is what it is.

Quote:

Benefit: You gain a +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.

It specifically calls itself out as a bonus to AC. I guess the limitation of only applying when wearing heavy or medium armor is supposed to bring it down a notch.

Given that this is a trait bonus that's specifically tied to armor, I would rule it as bypassed with a touch, or in other words it does not count to Touch AC.

Specific overrides general.

[StabbittyDoom]

LazarX wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Armor bonuses are no different than any other bonus to AC. You don't get bonus to bonuses. Even when you magically improve armor it is called an armor enhancement bonus which stacks with a regular armor bonus so in short a trait bonus to AC is not a trait bonus to an armor bonus.

The ability in question specifically says it is a bonus to AC, not a bonus to an armor bonus, and I do agree it is pretty strong for a trait, but it is what it is.

Quote:

Benefit: You gain a +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.

It specifically calls itself out as a bonus to AC. I guess the limitation of only applying when wearing heavy or medium armor is supposed to bring it down a notch.

Given that this is a trait bonus that's specifically tied to armor, I would rule it as bypassed with a touch, or in other words it does not count to Touch AC.

Specific overrides general.

By RAI you may be right (in fact, I assume you are), but by RAW you're dead wrong. Also, "Specific overrides General" only matters if there are two conflicting rules, and I do not see two conflicting rules.

The rule says "+1 trait bonus to AC". If it wanted to go away when armor is ignored, it should have said "+1 trait bonus to armor" instead, which would still stack with everything and keep the trait useful.

[Tarma]

Dennis Baker wrote:

Tarma wrote:

But that's the thing, these bonuses aren't Armor, shield, or natural armor.

The title says...

Quote:

While pretty rare, there is the insight bonus to AC. More common is the Morale or Competence bonus to AC. And the Sacred bonus actually comes up pretty often. None of those say in the definition of the bonus, but have abilities that boost AC.

Maybe if you had a specific example it would make more sense. I don't believe there are any published items that have a +1 sacred bonus to AC. An insight bonus (such as from the Ioun Stone) would affect touch AC... not sure about FF off the top of my head.

Not so much on items, but there are a few spells that provide sacred bonuses. Judgement light is one, the enchantment Champion is another. There's more, those are just the ones off the top of my head

[wraithstrike]

Grick wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Armor bonuses are no different than any other bonus to AC. You don't get bonus to bonuses. Even when you magically improve armor it is called an armor enhancement bonus which stacks with a regular armor bonus

If this were true, wouldn't you still gain the 'armor enhancement bonus' to AC vs touch attacks?

"When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus."

If it's not an "Armor Bonus" (or Shield Bonus or Natural Armor Bonus) then it applies to touch AC.

"Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses)."

So either we've been running it wrong forever, or the Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses to your Armor Bonus to AC.

I think they behave just like armor bonuses. If they are armor bonuses then they should not be stacking. I think the intent of the rules are clear though which is more important than my explanation which I may have bungled.

[Grick]

wraithstrike wrote:

I think they behave just like armor bonuses. If they are armor bonuses then they should not be stacking. I think the intent of the rules are clear though which is more important than my explanation which I may have bungled.

Basically it's an enhancement bonus to your actual armor (the item), all of which, combined, provides a single "Armor Bonus" to your AC.

Sort of like an enhancement bonus to your dexterity will increase your dexterity bonus to AC.

If you lose your Armor Bonus, you don't still benefit from the enhancement bonus to your armor. And if you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, you don't still benefit from the enhancement bonus to your Dex (for the purposes of AC).

Right?

So we're thinking the intent behind Defender of the Society is that it provides a +1 trait bonus to armor, stacking with the armor's inherent AC and the AC provided by an enhancement bonus to armor, to provide one total Armor Bonus to AC.

Armor Bonus = (armor AC) + (enhancement bonus) + (trait bonus)

But the way it's written, it simply provides a trait bonus to AC, not to the Armor Bonus itself.

AC = (Armor Bonus) + (Trait Bonus) + (Dex Bonus) + etc.

Does this sound correct?

[Dennis Baker]

Tarma wrote:

Not so much on items, but there are a few spells that provide sacred bonuses. Judgement light is one, the enchantment Champion is another. There's more, those are just the ones off the top of my head

Ah...

"Amber light erupts from the caster, granting allies in the burst a +2 sacred bonus to AC and CMD, and a +4 bonus to AC against critical confirmation attack rolls for 1 round per caster level."

I think Grick has it correct, if a bonus applies directly to AC, apply it to all armor classes (flat footed, touch, etc). That's definitely the case with Judgment Light.

Not sure what enhancement champion is, it's not in the PRD spell list.