Round 3: When I now roll to maintain the grapple do I maintain the pin? Or do I have to choose the pin action again?
You now maintain the pin. If you didn't maintain the pin when you made a grapple roll, the Tie Up option wouldn't actually make any sense, since you can only get multiple grapple actions a turn through, I beleve, a single feat.
The point of the Tie Up is really just to increase the difficulty of escaping, but if you really look at it, it's not really that awesome of an increase. Normally, your CMD is (effectively) your CMB+Dex Mod+10, but after a Tie Up, it becomes CMB+20, so it really only gives a bonus equal to (10 - your Dex Mod).
since you can only get multiple grapple actions a turn through, I beleve, a single feat.
Greater Grapple allows a second grapple as a move action, Rapid Grappler allows a third as a swift. A terrifying prospect on the receiving end.
You're still correct though. Pinned lasts until something removes it, in this case the grapple being broken or failed to be maintained.
The strength of the Tie Up option is that you do not need to maintain the hold at that point, leaving you free to do whatever else you need to do.
Well, yeah, but he was talking about using Strangler and stuff, so I figured he'd want to stay grappled.
My main question was: Do you have to do the pin action every turn for someone to be pinned or can you do the other grapple actions and still have your target pinned.
No, you just maintain the pin the same way you would maintain a grapple. Pin is just an upgrade on the grappled condition.
Once you have a guy pinned, he stays pinned as long as you maintain the grapple, and he doesn't escape. That means you can deal damage to him when you maintain the grapple (you don't need to use the "pin" action, since he's already pinned).
Once you have a guy pinned, he stays pinned as long as you maintain the grapple, and he doesn't escape. That means you can deal damage to him when you maintain the grapple (you don't need to use the "pin" action, since he's already pinned).
That's not my interpretation. I think you have to make a successful grapple check each turn to maintain the pin. Otherwise, as Aeshuura noted above, the wording under the Tie Up option wouldn't make much sense:
"The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin."
Yes, that means that you can't maintain a pin on your opponent and damage him in the same round unless you have a special feat or ability like Greater Grapple or Rake.
No, you maintain a grapple just by making a grapple roll (whether you succeed or not, no matter what you choose to do, be it move, damage, pin, whatever).
When you Pin someone, it's like upgrading the Grappled condition. You still maintain it by making a grapple roll of some sort, and you can move, damage, tie up, etc.
The point of Tie Up that was referenced was that after you've tied them up, they stay pinned while you can just get up and walk away from them. In other words, you no longer need to keep Grappling them for them to remain Pinned.
Again, that's not my interpretation.
It says "Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions [..]"; it doesn't say that you continue pinning the foe.
Of course, it doesn't say that you don't continue pinning the foe (plus another action), but neither does it say that you don't continue moving the grapple (plus another action) nor does it say that you don't continue tying up your foe (plus another action), etc.
I hit the FAQ button because I think it's vague enough to be worth a FAQ entry.
Again, that's not my interpretation.
So, it is your contention that the Tie Up option, which requires the person already be Pinned, was created solely for those with the Greater Grapple feat (Rapid Grappler was not released until Ultimate Combat, well after the Tie Up option existed)?
Yea, it's a little ambiguous, but pinned is also a grapple hold (pinned is a more severe form of grapple), and you check each round to maintain "the hold" - not specifically a lesser hold. You should go with that inference, too, because it's more in line with common sense and real life concepts. Wrestlers don't repeatedly release and reinstate pins every 6 seconds. Once you got someone pinned, they're pinned unless you fail to keep the hold or they break it. It's also reasonable to inflict injury or drag around or attempt to tie up someone you have in a lock, and thereby have the advantage of, so there's no reason to question the implication that you can do those other actions each round you successfully maintain the hold (which is in this case a pin).
The downside is you also lose your dex bonus, on top of the other downsides to having grappled condition yourself.
So, it is your contention that the Tie Up option, which requires the person already be Pinned, was created solely for those with the Greater Grapple feat (Rapid Grappler was not released until Ultimate Combat, well after the Tie Up option existed)?
No.
I think as long as you perform the Pin on one round and the Tie Up on the next round, you should be fine. From how I read it, you're not required to be pinning and tying up your opponent simultaneously.
My big question is after you're pinned, and then succeed at an escape roll (escape artist or beating the grapple CMD) do you go back to being grappled or do you break free entirely?
Per my understanding:
* Grappling is typically done over the armor.
* Pinning is done in the back of a wagon on Pathfinder prom night.
...bad comedy is bad...
On topic:
My big question is after you're pinned, and then succeed at an escape roll (escape artist or beating the grapple CMD) do you go back to being grappled or do you break free entirely?
The Pinned and Grappled conditions don't stack. Pinned simply replaces Grappled. So if you are pinned and succeed at an escape artist check (with appropriate minuses for that condition, other modifiers, etc) you are free of the heavy petting zoo.
EDIT: Kimbo Slice Ninja'ed by Jiggy...
A quick question that I have, is if someone has been tripped and is now prone, then another person initiates grapple with that prone person, do they skip the whole "grappled" part and just move directly to pinned?
A quick question that I have, is if someone has been tripped and is now prone, then another person initiates grapple with that prone person, do they skip the whole "grappled" part and just move directly to pinned?
No. Being grappled and/or pinned has nothing to do with being prone. I.e. it's possible to be pinned and still standing.
No. Being grappled and/or pinned has nothing to do with being prone. I.e. it's possible to be pinned and still standing.
That makes sense. Then a follow up question would be, is it possible to freely allow a charecter to give you the pinned condition and skip grapple?
The only reason I ask this is in one game our paladin suffered from the effects of a permanent confusion spell. On one of his "act normally" rounds, he threw his weapon away and layed down. He had his mount grapple him to give him the pinned condition. Basically offering no resistance. Would this action be legal?
No. Being grappled and/or pinned has nothing to do with being prone. I.e. it's possible to be pinned and still standing.That makes sense. Then a follow up question would be, is it possible to freely allow a charecter to give you the pinned condition and skip grapple?
The only reason I ask this is in one game our paladin suffered from the effects of a permanent confusion spell. On one of his "act normally" rounds, he threw his weapon away and layed down. He had his mount grapple him to give him the pinned condition. Basically offering no resistance. Would this action be legal?
Assuming he has the cooperation of the grappler, I don't see why not (an enemy doesn't have to pin you even if you offer yourself up to him after all).
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He had his mount grapple him to give him the pinned condition. Basically offering no resistance. Would this action be legal?
If you give yourself up to be restrained because you know you are likely to lose control and try to attack your allies you would actually be better off just being Grappled in PF rather than Pinned as it as as easy if not often easier to get free once Pinned than just Grappled. It doesn't make sense but those are the rules in PF (3.5 didn't have this problem).
He had his mount grapple him to give him the pinned condition. Basically offering no resistance. Would this action be legal?If you give yourself up to be restrained because you know you are likely to lose control and try to attack your allies you would actually be better off just being Grappled in PF rather than Pinned as it as as easy if not often easier to get free once Pinned than just Grappled. It doesn't make sense but those are the rules in PF (3.5 didn't have this problem).
How is it easer to escape pin vs grappled?
How is it easer to escape pin vs grappled?
If you're pinning someone, you lose your Dex bonus to AC (and presumably to CMD as well).
I just read it as only dex bonus to AC. It doesnt mention anything about it affecting CMB, I wouldn't presume that was the case.
At least in a pinned condition the confused paladin can't take swings at you.
*edit - Derf.. just noticed CMD not CMB...
Ok after looking a little closer, I believe the CMD should probably remain the same for the person who is pinning.. Since pinning mentions specifically "Denied dex bonus to AC", as written it should only affect AC. CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers, which mentions nothing of AC.
The person who is pinned however is "denied his dex bonus" Therefore the pinned creature has a penalty to CMD while the pinner does not.
Method A.
Round 3: When I now roll to maintain the grapple do I maintain the pin? Or do I have to choose the pin action again? The rules say nothing about how long the pin condition lasts.
I still think this is an excellent FAQ candidate...
Nope, nothing new. I just read someone talking about pinning on another thread and I thought I'd see if anyone else cared. Apparently not. :-)