Suffocation and combat

[Roaming Shadow]

Okay, so I've seen it here and there with either feats or monsters that have combat effects that can lead to suffocation. However, things can hold their breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. That means that so long as something can hold it's breath, even at a baseline Constitution of 10, it's 20 rounds before they're is even in danger of suffocation. With that even being the case, what's the point of even considering it for combat mechanics?

This is mostly prompted by the new Taotieth creature from Bestiary 3, which utilizes a dimenstional pocket in it's swallow whole. In it's case, it's 23 rounds before anyone is in danger of suffocating, and how many combats last 23 rounds. Sure, the suffocating in an extradimentional stone box sounds evocative, but it's not going to happen unless it, say, swallows the party wizard or rouge and then runs off.

[TriOmegaZero]

Taking actions decreases the number of rounds you can hold your breath.

Quote:

A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.

If you have to take a standard or full-round action to get somewhere you can breathe, and keep failing the checks, that could get dangerous quick.

[pipedreamsam]

Hit and run.

[StealthElite]

How about adding this as homebrew feat

Improved Chokehold: When an opponent is pinned, and in the effects of a choke hold, the chokeholder rolls a CMB vs the enemies CMD if successful, the grappler rolls a d6 and subtracts the result from the total number of rounds the grapplee can hold thier breathe.

if you have Greater grapple the die used is upped to 1d8.

normal suffocation rules still apply.

Here is the regular choke hold feat

Chokehold:

Chokehold (Combat)
While grappling, you can cut off an opponent’s air and
blood supply.
Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed
Strike, base attack bonus +6 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: While you have an opponent up to one size
category larger than you grappled, you can attempt a
grapple combat maneuver with a –5 penalty on the check.
If you succeed, you have pinned your opponent and hold
the opponent in a chokehold. When you maintain the
grapple, you also maintain the chokehold. A creature in a
chokehold cannot breathe or speak, and thus cannot cast
spells that have a verbal component. An opponent you have
in a chokehold has to hold his breath or begin suffocating.
Any creature that does not breathe, is immune to bleed
damage, or is immune to critical hits is immune to the
effects of your chokehold. When the grapple is ended, so
is the chokehold.

[Roaming Shadow]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Taking actions decreases the number of rounds you can hold your breath.

Quote:

A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.

If you have to take a standard or full-round action to get somewhere you can breathe, and keep failing the checks, that could get dangerous quick.

Could you point me to where it says that in the book, or where it's officially stated? I'm looking at the core rulebook, and unless they eratated it, that bolded portion is non-existant in the copy I have, though the rest is there as worded.

Even so, that's still 10 rounds, 13 inside the Taotieth. If the creature isn't dead in 13 rounds, there's something wrong with the party, or the DM's just being cruel. I remember when it used to be 1 round per point, with that reduction stipulation, which would be 10 rounds of simply holding breath and 5 rounds of struggling to break free. Dangerous, but not overpowered in my opinion. The 2 rounds per point just seems too much to me, as that meas the average person can hold their breath for 2 minutes, where in reality it's closer to 1.

[Roaming Shadow]

StealthElite wrote:

How about adding this as homebrew feat

Improved Chokehold: When an opponent is pinned, and in the effects of a choke hold, the chokeholder rolls a CMB vs the enemies CMD if successful, the grappler rolls a d6 and subtracts the result from the total number of rounds the grapplee can hold thier breathe.

if you have Greater grapple the die used is upped to 1d8.

normal suffocation rules still apply.

Here is the regular choke hold feat
** spoiler omitted **

Yeah, that's the feat I was refering to. As is, it's not even usefull for a silent takedown, as you have to get a grapple before you can pin, meaning they have time to yell, unless you take another feat to keep them quiet on that initial "hit", if the feat I'm thinking of works that way.

Yeah, you're choking a spellcaster, now hold it for 2 minutes until he needs to make Constitution checks...right.

[TriOmegaZero]

Roaming Shadow wrote:

Could you point me to where it says that in the book, or where it's officially stated? I'm looking at the core rulebook, and unless they eratated it, that bolded portion is non-existant in the copy I have, though the rest is there as worded.

Glossary.

Roaming Shadow wrote:

Even so, that's still 10 rounds, 13 inside the Taotieth. If the creature isn't dead in 13 rounds, there's something wrong with the party, or the DM's just being cruel. I remember when it used to be 1 round per point, with that reduction stipulation, which would be 10 rounds of simply holding breath and 5 rounds of struggling to break free. Dangerous, but not overpowered in my opinion. The 2 rounds per point just seems too much to me, as that meas the average person can hold their breath for 2 minutes, where in reality it's closer to 1.

So change it. Or accept that characters in Pathfinder are not average real world people.

[Talonhawke]

Remember he is gonna lose two round each time he tries to get loose thats gonna add up quick. And if your a Tetori monk you still making AoO and keep you full AC.

Also each time they try to get away they have to save or start suffocating right then.

[Roaming Shadow]

Thanks for the link. Yeah, I guess I'm venting just a little bit. It just seems strange to me why it crops up as a combat tactic when it's really more of a thematic "threat" that's virtually never going to happen. Strangulation is faster than suffocation, but there's no rules for that, at least not that I know of. If I run a game, I'll be inclined to reduce it to 1 round per point of Constitution, like I believe 3.5 had it, so that the threat of suffocation actually carries some weight without being a menacing danger.

[Roaming Shadow]

Talonhawke wrote:

Remember he is gonna lose two round each time he tries to get loose thats gonna add up quick.

Not really. 10 rounds is a lot of time, longer than the average combat even lasts in my experience, and that's using an action every ronud in an attempt to escape. And remember, that's at a base 10 Constitution. At even 14, that's four additional rounds of concentrated resistance.

Even if you do have him in a chokehold as a monk, you'll kill him maintaining a grapple for damage (and still maintaining the chokehold at the same time) likley before it even needs to make Constitution checks, and that's if the rogue doesn't stab him to death first.

[3.5 Loyalist]

I had a garrotte character once, fighter rogue. Good times. Didn't have to worry about them suffocating, they ran out of hp first.

[3.5 Loyalist]

Roaming Shadow wrote:

Talonhawke wrote:

Remember he is gonna lose two round each time he tries to get loose thats gonna add up quick.

Not really. 10 rounds is a lot of time, longer than the average combat even lasts in my experience, and that's using an action every ronud in an attempt to escape. And remember, that's at a base 10 Constitution. At even 14, that's four additional rounds of concentrated resistance.

Even if you do have him in a chokehold as a monk, you'll kill him maintaining a grapple for damage (and still maintaining the chokehold at the same time) likley before it even needs to make Constitution checks, and that's if the rogue doesn't stab him to death first.

Yep, pretty much true. However, if you have a party with some real defensive players, low str monks, that sort of thing, fights can go easily into the ten round mark. This could also happen with Gladiators trying to get uses out of their tire ability. Or skirmishers really wanting to keep distance, mongol builds etc.

[Michael Gentry]

Roaming Shadow wrote:

If I run a game, I'll be inclined to reduce it to 1 round per point of Constitution, like I believe 3.5 had it

Just FYI, it was 2 rounds/point in 3.5 as well.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#suffocation