There is more than one: Link
Hogfather is the one I am talking about. At one time, all of them were available for free Instant Viewing on Netflix. I haven't checked in a while, but if you have NF, you might want to check.
Is Anger Management on Netflix?
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I have a question.... how much of the objection to more or less clothing is a cultural bias rather then a gender bias.
From the outside looking in the US has a very strange set of values - weapons, gun-play, violence, idealising serial killers (Dexter) is a good thing... Genitalia is evil... show a bit of nipple and you are ostracised. [cut for length]
It's not just about the amount of boob showing, but also how it's displayed. Seoni's a good example of this. With the outfit she's wearing, there's no support for her breasts. They should sag more. They also shouldn't look pressed together. Her breasts are drawn as if she's wearing a push-up bra, only she's clearly not. I find that to be a more sexualized image than if Seoni were to be completely topless, but her breasts actually looking and hanging the way naked breasts actually look and hang.
Someone mentioned that there isn't a lot of variation in the images of men, and that's a fair point as well. Though, there's still more variation in the men than the women. The iconic wizard and summoner, for example, are both older men. The samurai looks like he's packing quite a few pounds underneath all that armour. I don't know of any artwork depicting older or heavy-set women. I think greater variety in body type (and age) for both male and female artwork would be great, especially considering the variety of shapes and sizes athletic men and women come in (and one would expect adventurers to be reasonably athletic).
First: Boobs don't work that way. (Link contains some images that might not be safe for work.)
When it comes to the way women are depicted in comic book art, video games, anime and so on, the problem isn't just that it's objectifying, but that it's more unrealistic than a porn magazine after Photoshopping. Boobs don't work that way. Spines don't work that way. Butts don't work that way. The images are designed solely to sexualize the woman being depicted, realism be damned. I'm astonished that some people don't seem to find that problematic.
Well, I must say that I do not find that problematic (usually) because I see the images merely as fictional characters, and not as representations of real persons.
And if such representations have such a huge influence on how people relate to real life, then I believe that young male geeks wil be forever traumatized by realizing that they are in no way on par with the over-muscular male characters featured in comic book art.
BTW, female characters are not the only victims of unrealism in comic book art. Male characters also tend to have more muscles than real human beings.
The deference between the way men and women are displayed in some artwork is that while men might sometimes have more muscle than is typical, the artwork of women is downright impossible. The link I posted, Boobs Don't Work That Way, has plenty of examples of the kind of stuff I'm referring to. There are boobs that defy gravity, for example; even Seoni's breasts have that problem. There are also breasts as smooth as the ones you'd find on a Barbie doll, lacking nipples or areola. Clothing clinging to boobs so as to perfectly outline their shape, even though the clothing would have to be painted on to actually get them to cling that way. Poses that are designed to show off boobs and ass, as the same time, even though it would require a rubber spine to pull off. (I have an exaggerated curve in my own spine, and even my ass doesn't stick out that far!) Clothes like this one, where if it was made of cloth, it would fall off, and if it was hard, the breasts would fall out. You just don't see the same degree of impossibility in artwork depicting men as you do in art depicting women.
Wow. A drawing lesson from Rob Liefeld.
That's like Sean Penn teaching an anger management class.
Dude, your mouth fell off.
That's ironic as hell.
No, seriously. Downton Abbey is like the Gary Teter of Masterpiece Theatre.TOTALLY KICKS ASS.
Truly? I keep hearing rave things about it. Now that it has been compared to a high-ranking Gary(I hear he is in the triple digits of Garys!!!), I must give it a look.
Someone mentioned that there isn't a lot of variation in the images of men, and that's a fair point as well. Though, there's still more variation in the men than the women. The iconic wizard and summoner, for example, are both older men. The samurai looks like he's packing quite a few pounds underneath all that armour. I don't know of any artwork depicting older or heavy-set women. I think greater variety in body type (and age) for both male and female artwork would be great, especially considering the variety of shapes and sizes athletic men and women come in (and one would expect adventurers to be reasonably athletic).
Older men, maybe, but still ripped as hell at best, in EXCELLENT shape at worst.
The deference between the way men and women are displayed in some artwork is that while men might sometimes have more muscle than is typical, the artwork of women is downright impossible. The link I posted, Boobs Don't Work That Way, has plenty of examples of the kind of stuff I'm referring to. There are boobs that defy gravity, for example; even Seoni's breasts have that problem. There are also breasts as smooth as the ones you'd find on a Barbie doll, lacking nipples or areola. Clothing clinging to boobs so as to perfectly outline their shape, even though the clothing would have to be painted on to actually get them to cling that way. Poses that are designed to show off boobs and ass, as the same time, even though it would require a rubber spine to pull off. (I have an exaggerated curve in my own spine, and even my ass doesn't stick out that far!) Clothes like this one, where if it was made of cloth, it would fall off, and if it was hard, the breasts would fall out. You just don't see the same degree of impossibility in artwork depicting men as you do in art depicting women.
Men are sometimes more muscular than typical? Maybe we aren't reading the same works. Drawn boobs do indeed defy gravity on a regular basis and are unusually globular when drawn, but I think there's some type of censorship related issue with why there are no nipples in most comic art that you see at the newsstand- although I have encountered women(and before anyone asks, YES, they were born women) who seem to have no nipples. I would have no problem with more realism on this angle, but I wholeheartedly disagree that you don't see the same degree on impossibility with respect to men-- most superhero-type works draw men with almost the exact same perfect body type, with the exact same fat dude(who almost always have well defined and thickly muscled arms for some reason) and exact same skinny dude(who almost always has a rather cut torso with spindly arms) thrown in for comparison.
Truly? I keep hearing rave things about it. Now that it has been compared to a high-ranking Gary(I hear he is in the triple digits of Garys!!!), I must give it a look.No, seriously. Downton Abbey is like the Gary Teter of Masterpiece Theatre.TOTALLY KICKS ASS.
What can I tell you Freehold, I love it, but it's about a british noble family in the early 20th century (starts with the titanic going down, we've nearly reached the end of WWI on the current broadcasts); if you're into that you'll like it, if you're not you'd probably be better off watching something faster paced, like, I don't know, Buffy the Vampire Slayer maybe?
Dove-tailing with the thread topic: Wait, it's set during world war one and we've only seen two people shot and one explosion? Girl movie!
Truly? I keep hearing rave things about it. Now that it has been compared to a high-ranking Gary(I hear he is in the triple digits of Garys!!!), I must give it a look.No, seriously. Downton Abbey is like the Gary Teter of Masterpiece Theatre.TOTALLY KICKS ASS.What can I tell you Freehold, I love it, but it's about a british noble family in the early 20th century (starts with the titanic going down, we've nearly reached the end of WWI on the current broadcasts); if you're into that you'll like it, if you're not you'd probably be better off watching something faster paced, like, I don't know, Buffy the Vampire Slayer maybe?
Dove-tailing with the thread topic: Wait, it's set during world war one and we've only seen two people shot and one explosion? Girl movie!
Take THAT, Whedon!!!!!
What can I tell you Freehold, I love it, but it's about a british noble family in the early 20th century (starts with the titanic going down, we've nearly reached the end of WWI on the current broadcasts); if you're into that you'll like it, if you're not you'd probably be better off watching something faster paced, like, I don't know, Buffy the Vampire Slayer maybe?
Hee hee!
Private messaging is the bestest!
Hush you! I'm waiting for my Downton Abbey to arrive in the mail!
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[Picks up the phone and calls his brother unionists over at the USPS]
Yeah, his name is F-R-E-E-H-O-L-D, yeah. I don't know, some PBS crap. Yeah, as much as will fit. Uh-huh, yeah, all Buffy. Alright, thanks, Lou, I'll see you at the rally.
I figure Freehold'll hate Downton Abbey. He hates everything else.
He prolly needs anger management.
Been reading the original REH Conan stuff and I'm surprised by just how homoerotic the depictions of men are. Certainly he spends much more time describing the perfection and appeal of the male form than he does the female (though there's plenty of that too). I know it was the 30s and that was probably not how it was intended to be taken, but Conan is pretty bisexual if you take his behavior as the only metric; he's always hanging around with some new dude who is described as appealing in a similar way.
I've been waxing nostalgic over in the kids' books thread and you know how it is, one memory leads to another, etc.
Anyway, does anyone remember an old TSR book called (IIRC) Bimbos of the Death Sun? I wish I had a copy at hand because it is so obviously on-topic, but, in particular,
I so wish I could read that again.
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Been reading the original REH Conan stuff and I'm surprised by just how homoerotic the depictions of men are. Certainly he spends much more time describing the perfection and appeal of the male form than he does the female (though there's plenty of that too). I know it was the 30s and that was probably not how it was intended to be taken, but Conan is pretty bisexual if you take his behavior as the only metric; he's always hanging around with some new dude who is described as appealing in a similar way.I've been waxing nostalgic over in the kids' books thread and you know how it is, one memory leads to another, etc.
Anyway, does anyone remember an old TSR book called (IIRC) Bimbos of the Death Sun? I wish I had a copy at hand because it is so obviously on-topic, but, in particular,
** spoiler omitted **
I so wish I could read that again.
Yup, that's the one. Thanks for the link. The paperback I used to have had a much more cheesecake cover, though.
Wow, this is a silly topic.
Silly,.....but deadly.....
I figure Freehold'll hate Downton Abbey. He hates everything else.
He prolly needs anger management.
completely untrue, I love the fact the giants won last night.
You guys are all late.
If anyone is still interested in the original topic, here is a similararticle about dialog in video games.
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You guys are all late.
Yeah, and where do you think they were while we were all talking about hot chicks in skimpy clothes? That's right, watching football. Gore Vidal said something about this.
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Actually, you're very, very wrong about this. Women are absolutely hurt by certain media that is made to appeal to men. Women are hurt, for example, when men compare real-life women to the impossible women depicted in comic books and games, and when they find those impossible women more sexually appealing than real women
Well, what about the unrealistic expectations of men in romantic comedies? Apparently men are supposed to be
Good looking but not realize that they're good looking/Not put any effort into looking good/not get hung up on their own looks
Sweet sensitive and caring but still able/willing to throw down to protect their girlfriend
Has a lot of money/nice car/nice house and yet still has all the time int he world to spend with their girlfriend AND put in time at the gym so they don't pack on any extra pounds.
The female ideal of a male (or whats being presented as a female ideal by male writers?) isn't nearly as visibly impossible as whats being used to appeal to males, but its no less a fantasy and its no less unrealistic.
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Women are hurt, for example, when men compare real-life women to the impossible women depicted in comic books and games, and when they find those impossible women more sexually appealing than real women.
There's a lot of value in your post, and I don't want to take away from that. I just feel the need to address this statement because I am exactly the red-blooded, overtly heterosexual, privileged male we're discussing -- and I freaking HATE the fake barbies in comic books and games (and strip clubs for that matter). I think most of my fellow "real men" would probably agree with me that plastic people are NOT ATTRACTIVE. Implants are NOT ATTRACTIVE. Waifs so skinny you can throw them like javelins, and whose ribs stick out and hair falls out from malnutrition are NOT ATTRACTIVE. Ancecdotally, I have so far met a total of one (1) guy who has honestly expressed a preference for his significant other to look more like a barbie doll.
What I find is that the driving force for looking like fashion models and porn bimbos doesn't come from men -- it overwhelmingly comes from other women. I listen to my wife and her sisters and her friends talk, and whole conversations revolve around how they'll socially ostrasize anyone who doesn't slavishly adhere to the in-girls' rigid standards of electrolysis and makeup and skin care and so on. And that goes for men, too -- I'm forced to submit to ear, eyebrow, and nose inspections every time I want to leave the house, and it was with some difficulty that I convinced these women that I was NOT going to remove all body hair from chest, legs, and elsewhere in the name of their minimim grooming standards for all humanity.
I'm told that I need to have grossly overdeveloped pectoral muscles and no overt musculature anywhere else (slender, dainty, girlish arms and legs), and no body hair, and longer head hair and eyelashes, and poutier lips and a weaker chin, so that I'll be "hot" (read: look exactly like a girl). That's not male privilege at work (but it's also fortunately not something I have to worry about, not being single). But for a guy looking to find a relationship, I'd argue the standards he's held to are every bit as ruthless as the ones the women are setting for each other.
P.S. Do people actually play these "rape" video games? I'd probably vomit and then be very angry (if it was realistic), or else get bored and wander off (if not). Of the guys I'm friends with, I have a hard time imagining that any of them would be at all interested. Indeed, I've never seen something like that at a guy's place -- bachelor pad or otherwise. Do they really make money?
The thing is BNW, I'd be willing to bet that if you went into some store that sold specifically to women, the staff would Assume you're shopping for your girlfriend and apply all those stereo types to you as a "nice guy" rather than give you the reaction the article writer describes his girlfriend getting.
The thing is BNW, I'd be willing to bet that if you went into some store that sold specifically to women, the staff would Assume you're shopping for your girlfriend and apply all those stereo types to you as a "nice guy" rather than give you the reaction the article writer describes his girlfriend getting.
The staffs reactions in such establishments usually ranges from "Get a picture, we just found bigfoot" to "Stereotypical clueless male, lets ask him what he's buying for who so he doesn't make an ass of himself" ... both of which are correct and the latter of which is very helpful because its rather true.
I find it rather hard to be offended by gender stereotypes, including the (many) that i don't fit. I see the steretypes often enough to understand why people think the way that they do .
edit: also i need to second the "We're not taking the blame for the anorexic look". I will admit to male involvement in the spine breaking breasts debacle, but if a fashion model looks like a coat rack no guy I know's response is "ooo thats hot" its "get her a pizza" or "Get her in rehab"
Edited due to length.
I don't know Kirth, I think what happened was the male bias set some expectations for women and once they were fully established as social norms Queer Eye for the Straight Guy and the metosexual movement turned around and applied them to men. Not saying you're wrong, just that I think it's a bit more complex.
On the subject of actual attraction vs big screen eye-candy:
The thing is BNW, I'd be willing to bet that if you went into some store that sold specifically to women, the staff would Assume you're shopping for your girlfriend and apply all those stereo types to you as a "nice guy" rather than give you the reaction the article writer describes his girlfriend getting.The staffs reactions in such establishments usually ranges from "Get a picture, we just found bigfoot" to "Stereotypical clueless male, lets ask him what he's buying for who so he doesn't make an ass of himself" ... both of which are correct and the latter of which is very helpful because its rather true.
I find it rather hard to be offended by gender stereotypes, including the (many) that i don't fit. I see the steretypes often enough to understand why people think the way that they do .
Dude, just come forward, crypto-zoologist have wasted several lifetimes total looking for you, just toss them a bone already.
As usual, Kirth, I agree with you in most aspects, but not all. I agree with you hat ribs are unattractive and that a lot of the pressure for women to change their appearance comes from other women. I think that last happens far more often than anyone realizes. I don't hate implants, however, although they do look quite different from the genuine article.. And while I enjoy the more than occasional adult dating sim/interactive novel, I'm not a fan of anything that encourages you to simulate rape or anything of the sort.
Women are hurt, for example, when men compare real-life women to the impossible women depicted in comic books and games, and when they find those impossible women more sexually appealing than real women.There's a lot of value in your post, and I don't want to take away from that. I just feel the need to address this statement because I am exactly the red-blooded, overtly heterosexual, privileged male we're discussing -- and I freaking HATE the fake barbies in comic books and games (and strip clubs for that matter). I think most of my fellow "real men" would probably agree with me that plastic people are NOT ATTRACTIVE. Implants are NOT ATTRACTIVE. Waifs so skinny you can throw them like javelins, and whose ribs stick out and hair falls out from malnutrition are NOT ATTRACTIVE. Ancecdotally, I have so far met a total of one (1) guy who has honestly expressed a preference for his significant other to look more like a barbie doll.
What I find is that the driving force for looking like fashion models and porn bimbos doesn't come from men -- it overwhelmingly comes from other women. I listen to my wife and her sisters and her friends talk, and whole conversations revolve around how they'll socially ostrasize anyone who doesn't slavishly adhere to the in-girls' rigid standards of electrolysis and makeup and skin care and so on. And that goes for men, too -- I'm forced to submit to ear, eyebrow, and nose inspections every time I want to leave the house, and it was with some difficulty that I convinced these women that I was NOT going to remove all body hair from chest, legs, and elsewhere in the name of their minimim grooming standards for all humanity.
I'm told that I need to have grossly overdeveloped pectoral muscles and no overt musculature anywhere else (slender, dainty, girlish arms and legs), and no body hair, and longer head hair and eyelashes, and poutier lips and a weaker chin, so that I'll be "hot" (read: look exactly like a girl). That's not male privilege at work...
What was interesting though, was how women viewed men. According to the survey, women judge 80% of the men to be "below average". Which shows how out of whack women's expectations are.
Or there are a lot of ugly guys on the internet? The decent looking guys go to bars instead?
Edited due to length.I don't know Kirth, I think what happened was the male bias set some expectations for women and once they were fully established as social norms Queer Eye for the Straight Guy and the metosexual movement turned around and applied them to men. Not saying you're wrong, just that I think it's a bit more complex.
On the subject of actual attraction vs big screen eye-candy:
** spoiler omitted **
cannot agree with your spoiler more.
What was interesting though, was how women viewed men. According to the survey, women judge 80% of the men to be "below average". Which shows how out of whack women's expectations are.
Or there are a lot of ugly guys on the internet? The decent looking guys go to bars instead?
I think they're a lot of people with bad pics online. I look almost nothing like any of my electronic pics, and one of my friends looks far, far paler than she really is.
Since when does an OK Cupid "survey" count for anything? They're not exactly a credible institution.
I don't care if it supports or detracts any of your arguments, I just think it's useless data. Maybe I'm still bitter because they hate atheists*.
*statement based on hearsay
But for the majority of women, the idea of sitting down and playing a complex game is boring. The idea of jumping into a hobby or activity where most of the participants are guys is uninteresting or uncomfortable. For her posting on Facebook and getting attention from her social circle or going out with her friends to socialize and talk is much more interesting, fun, and rewarding.
I'd say it's more for most people that sitting down and playing a complex game is boring. Saying for most women is part of the problem with geek culture. I think something else that should be factored in is that of exposure. I only really got into gaming that wasn't The Sims at university, when I got exposed to more things. The best way to get more people into any hobby is to introduce them to it, and try to be as polite and friendly as you can be. :)
The female response is "you should respect my feelings and be upset about this stuff!" .... which of course, doesn't respect the male perspective of "meh.. whatever"
(And I'm only responding to BNW's post because it allows me the easiest turnaround)
Is that really the female response, though?
I don't get upset with it often, only when it makes no sense for the character. The getting upset about it part comes when those things have invaded society to such an extent that it's thought of the normal mode of dressing for women. Although to be fair there are some weird men out there, who honk and go all "Hey baby" when you're wearing shorts (just above the knee shorts, althoug having to clarify that also serves as an example of the problem) and a t-shirt. Sometimes it seems like there's no winning for anybody 0_o.
But for the majority of women, the idea of sitting down and playing a complex game is boring.[]Yeah let me withdraw that comment as it really doesn't apply and complex is too broad a word to use. Maybe a better way to say it is women are much more likely to prefer casual games rather than invest significantly more time into a game turning it into more of a hobby. But even then there are exceptions.
So let me phrase it, sitting down and playing a wargame, a miniature game, certain console games, and other games like RPGs is only going to be done by someone who feels they are accomplishing something worth doing...and for a lot of those games, more men feel...
And I come across this post just after responding to the other one :0. Although again, I'll say that you can say this for anyone, and not just women. Saying that more men would find playing RPGs etc. as worthwhile is drawing from your position of privilege. To be fair, this could just be your experiences, so why not rather say from what you've seen?
:)
I removed a post. No pileons, please.
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Pig pile on Kirth!
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Since when does an OK Cupid "survey" count for anything? They're not exactly a credible institution.
I don't care if it supports or detracts any of your arguments, I just think it's useless data. Maybe I'm still bitter because they hate atheists*.
*statement based on hearsay
You're thinking about a different dating site. OK Cupid doesn't hate atheists, not by a long shot. You're thinking of E Harmony.
Ok Cupid was started not as a dating site (although it was set up that way), it was set up as a research tool to study attraction and the differences between groups of people. The site is very popular with polyamourous people, GLBT people, hipsters, punk rockers, all kinds of people with an edge, with a lot of vanilla around either checking it out or trying to take a walk on the wild side.
They show all of their data (extrapolated from their mining of user messages, rankings, journals, profile views, match questions and all sorts of other things) when they post their blog entries, and it is pretty fascinating stuff.
In the interests of full disclosure, I use the site (I've met some amazing women there), am an atheist (and very up front about it there) and have never had any issues at all.
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Oh. Okay. :)
(Nothing quite like beer to chase the redaction of a baseless accusation!)
I figure Freehold'll hate Downton Abbey. He hates everything else.
He prolly needs anger management.
I'm full of love and peace, dammit!!!!
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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My fiancee rejected me on okcupid. Then we got introduced later on and she told me her screen name. She claims she doesn't remember me sending her a letter.
Took me a minute to figure that out. She's NOW your fiancee. But how harsh would that have been if you were engaged and she broke it off with a message on OKCupid?
One ironcast rule all men should understand if they want to attract women...NEVER listen to women tell you what they like or look for in a man.
They say they want billy, they wind up dating captain hammer.