Is there any way to extend the duration of an Alchemist's mutagen aside from attaining higher levels in the class?
Not that I am aware of.
Dangit. Thats what I figured.
If you're terribly worried about it grab infuse mutagen and save some extras for emergencies
In fact Master Chymist is even better with 2lvls which lets you grab extened mutagen for double duration for your 3/day mutagens if you grab those at 8 and 9 (earliest i think possible) you have 140mins each for 3 uses a day or 8 hours of active mutagen. And you keep you bomb damage up and get a +2BAB and a couple of d10 HD
Dennis: That does not extend the mutagen ability for alchemists. It gives you mutate 2/day. Thare are important difference between the two abilities.
Jak: I know we talked about this in the other thread but Infuse Mutagen costs 1,000gp each time it is used. I don't count that as worth it monetarily or at the cost of a discovery. Either way it does not extend the mutagen but instead gives you another one.
Talonhawke: Extend mutagen affects the mutate ability granted by Master Chymist, not the mutagen gained by Alchemist.
Thank you for your answers everyone but to be clear I am not worried about how long the duration of the mutate ability granted by the master chymist will be. By the time my character gets to that level the duration wont be a concern. I am specifically inquiring about the duration of MUTAGENS. Not the mutate class ability granted by master chymist.
The mutate ability becomes the mutagen ability. The intent of it is that they are the same thing.
What Lune probably wants is the ability to take a one or two level Dip in Alchemist and have a long lasting mutagen. In other words, have his cake and omnomnomicate it too ;) That's anathema to taking levels in Master Chymist, as you need to stay in Alchemist for a while.
Not much that can help you except lots of gold and int damage
Cheapy: I suggest that you reread the Master Chymist. The mutagen gained from Alchemist, I assure you, is a different and seperate ability than that gained from from the Mutate ability granted by Master Chymist. One does NOT become the other. They are seperate abilities which can not both be used at the same time. Just read the first line of the ability:
"At 1st level, as a result of repeated exposure to her mutagens, the master chymist can now assume a mutagenic form twice per day without imbibing her mutagen."
Bolding mine. That means that she can still use her mutagen - a seperate ability that follows different rules yet shares some with Mutate.
I also assure you that I am not trying to "have my cake and omnomnomicate it too". Don't believe me? Check the original thread that spawned this question. That is 7 levels of Alchemist before entering Master Chemyst. Being that you need 3rd level extracts to enter that Prestige Class I'm not sure how you could even get early entry into it anyway. Anyway, you know what they say about assuming.
So, I would like to again clarify that I am not asking about extending Mutate (the ability granted from Master Chemyst). The question is very specifically stated in the original post:
Is there any way to extend the duration of an Alchemist's mutagen aside from attaining higher levels in the class?
Talonhawke: I believe you are again refering to the Infuse Mutagen ability. As I stated before that does not extend the duration of the mutagen. It only allows you to create another for use as a backup when you do not have an hour of downtime between encounters to prepair another.
Everyone: I'm not trying to be rude here. I realize that it may come across that way. Unfortunately I have no other words to use to explain that I am specifically asking if there is a way to extend the duration of the Alchemist's mutagen. Not Mutate. Not gain extra uses of mutagen. Just extend the duration of a mutagen. That is all.
I also fully realize that there is likely no way to do this aside from attaining higher levels in the class which is why I worded the original question as such. However, I also confess that I do not know everything in Pathfinder rules and perhaps there is something I have missed that would allow this.
Thank you all for your posts. :)
I know of no DM that would tell you they are seperate abilities that don't benifit from each other.
If you use Mutate or you Mutagen both force you into your Mutagenic Form which uses your conbined levels to determine its duration. Since either way now forces you to mutate Extended Mutagen effects any version of it period.
At 2nd level, the mutagenic form of the master chymist continues to evolve and develop as she grows in power. The master chymist selects an advanced mutagen, a power that changes how her mutagen form works or can only be accessed in her mutagenic form. She gains additional advanced mutagens at 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th level. The chymist cannot select the same advanced mutagen more than once.
Heck it even says that those abilites from advanced mutagen work for either ability.
Also my math earlier was off at 9th level you in form for 180 mins or 3 hours a use for 9 hours a day total.
Other than this leveling up is your only choice.
Yep, if you read the Master Chymist, it's clear that the mutate ability and the mutagen are one and the same with some extra fluff baggage.
As my current character is headed this exact route, Talonhawke and Cheapy are right. But the simple answer is no not without taking Master Chymist. You might try convincing your GM to allow an extend spell metamagic rod to work on it by making him/her a pie and/or cookies.
I recommend pie and good beer.
Or buy the pizza it works on me. On the cookies note actually had a DM grant godhood on the last game of a campaign in 3.5 because his G/F sent fresh homemade cookies to each game for like 6 months and thus the halfling God of Baked Goods was born.
Aminas Dominas Lemonis Merangis
Talonhawke & Cheapy: I didn't say that the abilities didn't benefit from eachother. But as there are important differences (including the ones that SKR pointed out in the linked thread) they are different and seperate abilities. Reread what I wrote in my last post. Everything I said is still very true. I will point out the important differences:
1. You can not be forced to use your mutagen in the same way you can be forced to mutate.
2. To assume her mutagenic form you do not need to consume your mutagen.
3. Most importantly to the discussion at hand, mutate "...adds together her alchemist and master chymist levels together to determine her effective alchemist level for the duration of this form." whereas mutagen only lasts "...for 10 minutes per alchemist level." And since, "She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for extracts per day and an increased effective caster level for extracts." the duration of the mutagen is never going to get any higher if the character never takes more levels in alchemist after entering Master Chemyst. ...unless I missed something?
So in short, contraray to (what seems to be) popular belief your mutagen and mutate ability do not share a duration. They have different durations.
I did consider the cookies route though. I don't think that extend rods come as close as something like Prayer Beads do. Still that only raises "caster level", not "alchemist level". Perhaps the cookies might push it over the edge to convince him. Either way it isn't RAW and that was what I was looking for here so I don't have any convincing to do.
Thank you all again for your posts. Sorry if there was any confusion or miscommunication. I'm doing my best to keep it as straight forward as possible.
Nothing SKR says refutes that he even says its basicly extra uses of mutagen with extra baggage.
Look at it like this
Mutate says add your levels together to determine the duration of your Mutagenic form.
Mutagen now forces you into mutagenic form.
Mutagen now uses mutagenic forms duration.
Just because it makes you assume your mutagenic form does not mean that it uses the duration from Mutate. It uses the duration from Mutagen as that is the ability that was used. Just like when you use the Mutate ability you use it's duration.
Let me put this a different way. While I can understand why YOU have that interpretation of the rules even though it is not RAW, that doesn't mean that is how my DM is going to interpret it. Or any DM. Having the rules on your side is always best. For that reason I am not looking for a way to extend the Mutate ability granted by Master Chemyst but rather to increase the duration of Mutagens.
The other reasoning behind this, as previously stated, is that by the time I can get Mutate I no longer really have a concern about the duration of Mutagens as I gain Mutate for several uses per day and the duration continues to advance throughout the PrC as I gain more levels. The concern is the earlier levels where I can only use his mutagen for 10min/level and can only make a new mutagen with an hour of downtime. While this information may help provide background about the reason I'm asking the question it isn't really needed for the question to be answered. All the needed context is contained within the question.
Mutate (Su)
At 1st level, as a result of repeated exposure to her mutagens, the master chymist can now assume a mutagenic form twice per day without imbibing her mutagen. In this form, she gains all the bonuses and penalties of her mutagen and adds together her alchemist and master chymist levels together to determine her effective alchemist level for the duration of this form. Using a mutagen also forces the chymist into this form. Taking a mutagen or using the mutate ability again while in her mutagenic form works normally (with the new mutagen’s modifiers replacing the current modifiers, and the longer duration taking precedent). The chymist remains in her mutagenic form until its duration expires, her magic is interrupted (as with an antimagic field), or she expends another use of her mutate ability.
This is the last thing i'm gonna point out that it is RAW both use the mutagening for and adds the classes together for the duration.
Talonhawke: I disagree that Mutate overrides the duration of Mutagen. The bolded text I believe relates to abilities granted by the mutagenic form. It does not, however, relate to duration.
Either way, this point is moot to the question. I thank you for your opinion on the interpretation of the RAW, however.
The last half of the sentence right before the bolded part is explicitly is about duration. Whenever you are in your mutagenic form (a game term from the mutate ability), you add your alchemist levels to master chymist levels to determine the duration of the
mutagenic form. Whenever you use the mutagen, you go into the mutagenic form. Since you are in the mutagenic form, you use the duration of it. It is RAW. More importantly, it is also read as intended.
This is not a game of subtleties. Abilities are meant to be exactly the same, or vastly different. This falls in the former camp, with the Jekyl / Hyde bit thrown in. At this point, this is an issue about not confusing people who read this post in the future.
It would be unfortunate if your, or any, GM went against both the word of the rules, as well as the spirit of the rules.
The last half of the sentence right before the bolded part is explicitly is about duration.
Yep.
Whenever you are in your mutagenic form (a game term from the mutate ability), you add your alchemist levels to master chymist levels to determine the duration of the mutagenic form.
I'm still with ya.
Whenever you use the mutagen, you go into the mutagenic form.
Uh huh.
Since you are in the mutagenic form, you use the duration of it.
And...thats where ya lost me. It doesn't say, "Since you are in your mutagenic form you use the duration of your Mutate ability." They ARE separate abilities with their own durations.
In fact, read the next sentence.
Taking a mutagen or using the mutate ability again while in her mutagenic form works normally (with the new mutagen’s modifiers replacing the current modifiers, and the longer duration taking precedent).
Why would you need to specify this if they didn't have different durations? The duration would ALWAYS be longer if they used the same duration. The reason that it needs to specify is because it depends on how long into the duration of the Mutate ability you are before imbibing the Mutagen. Otherwise they wouldn't have to specify.
The rest of what you say is simply conjecture. You are not the guide to the spirit of the rules, Cheapy. There is no more way for you to know what the spirit of the rules are than there is for me to. All we have to go on is the letter.
Now if a game designer dropped in and weighed in with his words then there wouldn't be any argument. We would know what the letter of the rule AND the spirit of the rule means.
I want to point out once again that this point is moot to the question at hand. The question I asked was NOT about Mutate. It was about Mutagens. I really do not wish to continue this meaningless debate about the way that you think that the rules Mutate work.
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Lune, you're trying really hard to make the abilities more complicated than they are. The Master Chymist entry clearly states about its mutatation "Using a mutagen also forces the chymist into this form." There is no way for a Master Chymist to drink a mutagen without it being affected by all of his Master Chymist levels.
Mergy, I already responded to his posting from SKR in THIS thread. Nowhere in that does he refer to duration at all. See, I do not believe I am making it complicated. I believe I am following the rules for duration for each of the individual class abilities. I believe those who think that they share a duration are reading far more into the rules than exist there.
But again, this is all moot. I would like to return to a constructive conversation here and leave this moot point behind us all.
I'm with Lune on this. You use a different ability to turn into the same form. All the effects linked to turning into that form are the same. But since you're using a different ability (with each one having a given duration), you mark it down as a use of a different ability and it lasts as long as that ability says. If there was a feat (prereq: rage & mutagen class abilities) which said "While raging, you automatically assume your mutagenic form for the duration of your rage", you wouldn't try to argue that you gain different bonuses than usual, and you wouldn't try to argue that the duration is the same as if you drank a mutagen.
But there is more than one way to assume your mutagenic form and those two ways have different durations.
What Bobson said is true. (Thank you for your support.) If the entry only spoke of the duration then you wouldn't try to argue that you also gained the abilities even though it doesn't say that. It says the reverse: that you gain the abilities and doesn't mention the duration.
There is no explicit mentioning of a change in duration. Furthermore I do not believe it was implicitly intended. The former is RAW while the latter is open to debate, moot to this topic and will only be resolved by a designer weighing in with the intentions behind the rule. Even then you are getting only a single designer's opinion rather than all of those who worked on it.
While I admit that it would be nice to have a designer weigh in with his opinion on the Master Chemyst's Mutate ability I would like to once again repeat that the answer to this question has no bearings on the question at hand:
Is there any way to extend the duration of an Alchemist's mutagen aside from attaining higher levels in the class?
Not that I or anyone so far who has contributed in this thread is aware of that hasn't already been mentioned as an alternative. Perhaps you can talk your dm around to building a custom item.
Yeah, I was thinking of something like that. Or perhaps allowing the wording of the ability to work with existing items. So far nothing by RAW though that I'm aware of.