Other than don't do it! lol
I had my heart set on a Dragon disciple/monk, a combination that essentially gives you no real dump stats. I was almost talked out of it, until I got high stats - all but one was 14 and above (1 18, 2 16, 2 14 and a 9) So I decided to take a risk. It's a fun character concept and an interesting backstory, and high stats should mean I can hold my own still.
So now that I've made this terrible decision, any advice on how to minimize the damage? I'm using my ability score from half elf to bring up the last stat to an 11 and putting it in Con - with high defense and maneuverability I should be able to live long enough to get to DD's D10 hit dice. I'm currently level 3 - Lvl 1 sorc and level 2 monk. I intend to take 4 levels in monk in total before moving on to DD. Once claw damage surpasses unnarmed damage I'll probably use that, taking a talent so I can use claws with flurry of blows once they catch up.
Any thoughts?
Hm. My thought would be human, with:
str 20, dex 16, con 14, int 9, wis 16, cha 14
If you really want to go with a higher int, then I'd strongly suggest taking the toughness feat (& maybe also great fortitude, though you'll have a fairly good fort save anyway) instead of putting your floating +2 in con; there aren't any feats that will give you +1 to hit & damage, after all.
The other thing you can do is drop dex; all it does for you is AC, after all, and with mage armor & shield active you'll still have a decent AC.
I don't have any particular advice on feats or how to combine natural attacks w/ monk abilities, though; monk is not a class I've looked at in great detail.
Still, sounds like a fun concept; good luck with it!
Take the absolute minimum of sorcerer--one level only. Put the rest in DD and monk. You still wind up with 4th level spells. Only take buff spells and utility--no damage. It is playable, but hard, hard, HARD to pull off.
I agree with Emerald Wyvern on the stat allotment, but I would advice putting your level 4 advancement in Int (to raise it to a 10), and then 2 points each in Dex and Wis (at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th). That would put your final scores (at 20th level, pre-magic) at Str 24, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 18, and Cha 14. With a +6 belt of perfection and a +6 headband of inspired wisdom, you are looking at Str 30, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 12, Wis 24, and Cha 14. Get a monk's robes, and you are looking +17 to AC (Dex, Wis, and monk bonus) and a base unarmed damage of 2d6+10.
Master Arminas
Well, you can take a look at my guide for some general information.
I would go 18, 14, 16, 9, 16, 14 for statistics. Your only real dump you can do is Intelligence, which you will get a bonus to as a Dragon disciple at level 8. Of course you could go crossblooded emperial or sage to switch your casting stat to wisdom or intelligence respectively. Then dumping Charisma is not a bad plan. If you go sage for instance, an 18, 14, 16, 14, 16, 9 is a good placement. I wouldn't do this if you are planning Eldrich Heritage feats though, because the Charisma is necessary for those.
I agree with the 4 level dip, the question is what archetype gets you the most in 4 levels and fits in with your concept. I am a big fan of the Master of Many Styles, although it will not allow you to flurry. But you can get amazing defense through crane style early in the game, and that will allow you to make it farther. I don't think Sohei can choose natural weapons for flurrying, Monk of the Sacred Mountain adds to Natural Armor, which isn't bad. Qinggong is nice for being able to pick up Barkskin at level 4, and if you want to do zen archer, I will track you down.
Oterisk, I have been meaning to tell you: great guide.
Master Arminas
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Well, you can take a look at my guide for some general information.
I would go 18, 14, 16, 9, 16, 14 for statistics. Your only real dump you can do is Intelligence, which you will get a bonus to as a Dragon disciple at level 8. Of course you could go crossblooded emperial or sage to switch your casting stat to wisdom or intelligence respectively. Then dumping Charisma is not a bad plan. If you go sage for instance, an 18, 14, 16, 14, 16, 9 is a good placement. I wouldn't do this if you are planning Eldrich Heritage feats though, because the Charisma is necessary for those.
I agree with the 4 level dip, the question is what archetype gets you the most in 4 levels and fits in with your concept. I am a big fan of the Master of Many Styles, although it will not allow you to flurry. But you can get amazing defense through crane style early in the game, and that will allow you to make it farther. I don't think Sohei can choose natural weapons for flurrying, Monk of the Sacred Mountain adds to Natural Armor, which isn't bad. Qinggong is nice for being able to pick up Barkskin at level 4, and if you want to do zen archer, I will track you down.
I was under the impression that wildblooded and crossblooded were not compatible.
I was under the impression that wildblooded and crossblooded were not compatible.
I had heard that as well, and so I didn't originally include it in my guide, but upon request I put it in there. If you have somewhere I could look to see an official answer (or semi official) I will make a note of it.
Oterisk, I have been meaning to tell you: great guide.
Master Arminas
Oh, and thank you. It was a lot of work, but I like the way it turned out. I hope it has been of use to people.
By raw its a little hazy but I dont think its against RAI as opposed to RAW. Ask your dm if you can crossblood draconic with the empyreal wildbloodline. It seems to me they ought to work together and it would be a big help for your concept. Do that and you are no more mad then a normal monk, so I think that is your best bet.
Edit:
A quick search turned up what is likely as official an answer as we will get since it has of yet not been in the fac for ultimate magic in the ask james jacobs thread. It still leaves things I think in the ask your dm territory, but it at least brings you this side of crazy town when you do.
I would've gone crossblooded with celestial variant so you could cast off wisdom and dump your charisma. Gold dragon celestial sorcerer monk has a lot of flavor.
I always saw DD as a gish prc to mix with EK. Maybe sorc1, monk2 ftr2 DD X, EKX
Well, you can take a look at my guide for some general information.
I would go 18, 14, 16, 9, 16, 14 for statistics. Your only real dump you can do is Intelligence, which you will get a bonus to as a Dragon disciple at level 8. Of course you could go crossblooded emperial or sage to switch your casting stat to wisdom or intelligence respectively. Then dumping Charisma is not a bad plan. If you go sage for instance, an 18, 14, 16, 14, 16, 9 is a good placement. I wouldn't do this if you are planning Eldrich Heritage feats though, because the Charisma is necessary for those.
I agree with the 4 level dip, the question is what archetype gets you the most in 4 levels and fits in with your concept. I am a big fan of the Master of Many Styles, although it will not allow you to flurry. But you can get amazing defense through crane style early in the game, and that will allow you to make it farther. I don't think Sohei can choose natural weapons for flurrying, Monk of the Sacred Mountain adds to Natural Armor, which isn't bad. Qinggong is nice for being able to pick up Barkskin at level 4, and if you want to do zen archer, I will track you down.
Actually, I have read your guide. It's a big inspiration so far!
Actually, I kind of like the ideas here. For reference, natural weapons cant be used as unarmed attacks unless you take a feat (I think it's something like primal training in Ultimate Combat) and until my claw damage outpaces unarmed damage, I wont bother getting it (probably around level 8 I think, maybe later.)
I wasn't aware that there was a way to use a stat other than Charisma for my casting stat - that's awesome. That'll give me the dump stat I so desperately need.
Blackbloodtroll has it right. Feral Combat Training is the way to go. You get the bite at level 7, go with the "Flurry of Bites" which would be a pretty good weapon for you to flurry with particularly with your high strength and 1 1/2 strength damage added to the bite. At 11th level you get 1d6 energy with it as well, which is the same time your claws get that if you only take one level of sorcerer. The only problem with this is that you do have a limited amount of rounds you can do this in a day, although the crossblooded sorcerer can help you with that.
Remember that the Monk's Robe also gets you +5 levels of AC and Unarmed Damage, so you can take 15 levels of monk, 1 sorcerer, and 4DD to still get the same amount of attacks as a 20th level monk, along with the 2d10 damage. I don't recommend it though, if you are going the way of the Dragon it helps to commit. Three levels of Monk with the Monk Robe seems pretty good, then go two levels Sorcerer, and finish out with 5 levels of Monk.
Monk 8, Sorc 2, DD 10 gets you FotD II twice per day, (three with sorcerous bloodstrike) an extra attack while flurrying, and the possibility of the Dimensional Dervish feats if you follow my plan. You will be taking them at 15, 17, and 19 but it can be done. Don't bother unless you are going all the way to 20. You won't be able to enjoy it.
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Blackbloodtroll has it right. Feral Combat Training is the way to go. You get the bite at level 7, go with the "Flurry of Bites" which would be a pretty good weapon for you to flurry with particularly with your high strength and 1 1/2 strength damage
Teensy nitpick: Flurry only gives 1.0 Str modifier to damage rolls, never mind the weapon used. Still a powerful option, that bite.
I'd go Sohei 8/Empyreal Sorc 2/DD X, since by 6th Sohei level, you can flurry with a high-crit reach weapon, such as a bardiche, which is just awesome for a high-str low-defense gish like that sorcerer multiclass right there. There's potential in a Dragon Style build, but it takes loads of feats and can be dangerous since you can't really tank without a hefty investment in magic items so taking full attacks to the face is unadvisable. Reach weapon+Enlarge Person+bite for enemies inside reach feels better to me.
Teensy nitpick: Flurry only gives 1.0 Str modifier to damage rolls, never mind the weapon used. Still a powerful option, that bite.I'd go Sohei 8/Empyreal Sorc 2/DD X, since by 6th Sohei level, you can flurry with a high-crit reach weapon, such as a bardiche, which is just awesome for a high-str low-defense gish like that sorcerer multiclass right there. There's potential in a Dragon Style build, but it takes loads of feats and can be dangerous since you can't really tank without a hefty investment in magic items so taking full attacks to the face is unadvisable. Reach weapon+Enlarge Person+bite for enemies inside reach feels better to me.
Ah, that's why I rated it orange. I knew there was a reason.
Got the thumbs up on crossblooded/Wildblooded mix. Essentially wildblooded is its own set of archtypes that happen to be similiar to existing ones, so I don't see any harm in mixing the two. Crossblooded is the one I'd imagine to have balance issues, but that's why it has downsides. Still, I initially had +6 to will saves at level 3, so I can take the hit. The only real downside to all this is Charisma is my new dump stat, so I lose the whole 'Intimidation' bonuses. Might as well go acrobatics I suppose, or something I'll be good at. If I take acrobatics, I can probably convince my GM to allow me to change the ranks to fly once I get wings. Flurry is one of the reasons I'm taking monk levels (and natural AC bonus without spell failure chance, and Ki points and fast movement)
I'm thinking I'll go Qinggong monk. Barkskin is more useful than feather fall, especially when I'll be getting wings later. It's a more useful use of ki points (effective armor class of 21 at level 4)
Remember to use some of your spell slots for offense.
One level of sorceror allows you to use all kinds of scrolls and wands, and that's a good option for a lot of spells like Mage armor that don't scale much with level.
Actually, I have one last big decision to make. I'm not big on stunning fist, so possibly monk of the four winds? It'd open up a whole bunch of bonus damage that'll scale somewhat, and giving up stunning fist seems mildly less damaging then giving up the slowfall - which could be useful for some interesting flying combat maneuvers (Fly over the enemy, land on wall, drop straight down?) Plus it'd combine with my draconic arcana for potentially a lot of damage...
Also for note: I start knowing only one low level spell, which I'm using for Enlarge person (we have a 'zerker in the party, I think it'll get a lot of use both in combat, and for brute forcing our way into stuff...)
I also have to figure out what skills to take now. Since my charisma is now -1, Intimidate, Bluff and UMD no longer seem like the smartest skills to take ranks in. We have someone going full sorc so UMD is covered, and a rogue going for charisma stuff, so bluff and possibly Intimidate are covered, which leaves me thinking Acrobatics, Climb and Escape artist might be useful instead. Perception, Knowledge (Arcana) and I think even spellcraft are already covered (not sure about spellcraft)
Picking up some non used knowledges isn't a bad plan. As a monk you pick up Knowledge Religion and History as class skills as well. You will still want perception for yourself because acting in the surprise round is very important. Climb is completely useless once you can fly, so don't be heavily invested. Escape Artist isn't a good choice either, since you can just take a -2 and flurry the snot out of them. Sense Motive is a great skill, which may not be covered yet I would take it even if it is covered. It is another skill which could use redundancy.
Blackbloodtroll has it right. Feral Combat Training is the way to go. You get the bite at level 7, go with the "Flurry of Bites" which would be a pretty good weapon for you to flurry with particularly with your high strength and 1 1/2 strength damage
Teensy nitpick: Flurry only gives 1.0 Str modifier to damage rolls, never mind the weapon used. Still a powerful option, that bite.
I'd go Sohei 8/Empyreal Sorc 2/DD X, since by 6th Sohei level, you can flurry with a high-crit reach weapon, such as a bardiche, which is just awesome for a high-str low-defense gish like that sorcerer multiclass right there. There's potential in a Dragon Style build, but it takes loads of feats and can be dangerous since you can't really tank without a hefty investment in magic items so taking full attacks to the face is unadvisable. Reach weapon+Enlarge Person+bite for enemies inside reach feels better to me.
To get 1.5 str damage on flurry of bites is to take the Dragon Style Combat Style tree. The first attack is at 1.5 with Dragon Style, once you get Dragon Ferocity you get to add +.5 to all your attacks. So fist is 2x str and the rest 1.5 times str.
I'd consider going with claws maybe except for the limited uses per day. But Claws in the long run do better than the bite once you get them doing 1D6, they count as magic and do 1D6 energy damage. With the Dragon style you get the extra str damage with them as well.
To get 1.5 str damage on flurry of bites is to take the Dragon Style Combat Style tree. The first attack is at 1.5 with Dragon Style, once you get Dragon Ferocity you get to add +.5 to all your attacks. So fist is 2x str and the rest 1.5 times str.
Technically it's 1.5+.5 on the first hit and 1+.5 on other hits.
...which doesn't let you get the full benefit of power attack on the secondary hits.
I have a sorcerer/monk/dragon disciple (actually, a house-ruled "demon disciple", so to speak) and I think he's great. My suggestions would be:
- If you're going for a melee fighter, Strength is the most important stat and Charisma is much less important.
- I'm going for something like 1 level of monk, 1 level of sorcerer, 3 more levels of monk, 4 levels of dragon disciple, 4 more levels of monk and finishing off with the rest of dragon disciple.
- I don't think Feral Combat Training is very interesting at all; my monk uses the Weapon Adept archetype instead and never uses his claw/claw/bite or unarmed attack
YMMV, of course.
Enlarge Person for the person going into melee in my opinion is not strictly useful. It's actually faster to chug a potion of enlarge person, because standard action versus full-round action. Expeditious Retreat, Shield, True Strike are all better choices in my opinion.
Enlarge Person is useful if you have a certain amount of time to prepare.
My dragon disciple monk knows Mage Armor (most useful at low levels and free for a draconic bloodline sorcerer), Enlarge Person and Shield, and True Strike is a definite candidate for future selection.
The best level 2 spell for a melee character (by far, IMO) is Mirror Image.
I'm more taking four levels of monk, then DD for 10 levels and potentially picking up more sorc levels to round out after 15. The strategy will be more switch hitting then being the melee dynamo so I like the flavour of unarmed/natural weapons. Plus, my DM warned us upfront that oriental gear will be few and far between, which is fine for monk if you go unarmed.
As for spells, I decided against true strike because flurry doesn't really rely on one hit combos (special moves aside), Expiditious retreat is already overshadowed by my extra 10 ft movement, and shield... well, my defense is going to be strong enough. Enlarge person won out as more of a utility / buff so far, although I'm open to arguments. I'm not too worried about it since I'll be getting more spells later.
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True Strike isn't for flurrying, it's for the combat manoeuvre that you can't afford to flub. Expeditious Retreat would bring you up to 70 ft. speed, which is ridiculous, and being ridiculous is always good. Shield is a shield bonus which means it stacks with all your other AC, and a +4 to AC at will (and immunity to magic missiles, for what it's worth) should not be discounted.
I would just prefer, as a rough and ready melee fighter, to not have to spend my first round of combat buffing up. The benefit of casting Expeditious Retreat at the start of combat is you've basically lost no movement for that round. If you needed to double move to get to the guy anyway, you've lost nothing by casting it and then advancing after. The benefit of True Strike is for those dink enemies that cast shield, barkskin, and fight defensively with a high dex just to annoy you. True Strike to trip them or disarm them or grapple them and be done with that nonsense. Shield is well, it's another thing stopping you from dying. Consider that it's very easy to keep a stock of 50gp potions of Enlarge Person, but you cannot have a potion of Expeditious Retreat, True Strike, or Shield.
I'm more taking four levels of monk, then DD for 10 levels and potentially picking up more sorc levels to round out after 15.
The problem with that, as far as I was concerned, was that dragon disciple doesn't really give out very many goodies after level 4 (more Str) or 5 (blindsense). You get wings later on (character level 14), but at that point you could probably afford a bunch of scrolls of Fly, if you wanted. The extra spellcasting is nice, too.
Whereas more levels of monk benefit you right away (bonus feat, speed bonus, AC bonus, extra attack at level 8).
The strategy will be more switch hitting then being the melee dynamo so I like the flavour of unarmed/natural weapons.
It does sound cool, I admit. :-)
Plus, my DM warned us upfront that oriental gear will be few and far between, which is fine for monk if you go unarmed.
Quarterstaves aren't particularly oriental.
The problem with that, as far as I was concerned, was that dragon disciple doesn't really give out very many goodies after level 4 (more Str) or 5 (blindsense). You get wings later on (character level 14), but at that point you could probably afford a bunch of scrolls of Fly, if you wanted. The extra spellcasting is nice, too.Whereas more levels of monk benefit you right away (bonus feat, speed bonus, AC bonus, extra attack at level 8).
True, if you're going pure melee. The con will be a decent boost, as will the int for skills, Dragon form, extra breath attacks, extra AC, all while continuing spell progression for sorcerer. I'll be good in melee, have flight on demand for when it's useful, be super hard to kill, and Some decent level spells later on when I can't keep pace with the barbarian or rogue. Heck, with enlarge person, I may end up carrying the sorcerous in our party on my back as a shoulder cannon. Mwahaha.
I also kind of like the idea of form of the dragon + enlarge person for RP purposes. I could definitely see it making for an interesting RP encounter in some inn somewhere in later levels. Giant green dragon in your living room anyone?