Simple question, dual wield fighter crit based and focused on alot of attacks. What should blender boy use?
I will make a sword and board at a later date so its not an option. Only pathfinder books. Lets say the heirloom weapon trait is in. So the comparisons are.
1d4 18-20 x2 vs 1d8 19-20 x3
-1 to hit vs -3 to hit
The other trait will probably be killer so an extra +1 damage on a crit for the falcata over the kukri.
it depends on how high the level is. I believe on later levels, kukri will be more useful, because you have more hits to stab down an exhausting critical. You'll be a status inducer rather than a damager. however, a falcata should deal more raw damage, especially when your strength goes really high.
or get a large falcata for a two-handed 2d6;19-20/x3 weapon. XD
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Strong suit of kukri is that it is martial weapon saving you a feat that would be expended for Exotic Weapon Proficiency otherwise.
Kukri dual-wielder should be more focused on critical feats and crippling opponent with debuffs from them. Falcata would be more straightforward damage dealer.
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The falcata is an amazing weapon, but not one that you should dual wield.
It is best utilized for builds that want to be able to switch between one-handed and two-handed attacks.
Heirloom Weapon was changed because it was an extremely broken trait (relative to the power of other traits). If your DM doesn't know about the errata, the ethical thing to do is to tell him about it - and why it was changed.
Taking extra damage penalties to hit is almost never a good idea for improving your average damage, whether those penalties come from dual wielding a weapon that isn't light, or 2-handing a weapon that is the wrong size for you. There are niche situations where this isn't true, but the general rule is that +attack is more important than +damage, given numbers of a similar order.
Back to your original question: go kukri if you can't spare the extra feat. If you have a feat to burn, go with Wakizasis, as HappyDaze suggested (for average +1 damage per hit).
Thats good news on the heirloom trait to be honest for awhile there was no reason to take anything else.
So it would in fact be a feat and -4 to hit vs -2 to hit.
I do plan on taking the two weapon fighter variant so at level 11 the penalties will start to be reduced. But than again its starting at 1 and working its way up.
I thought the x3 on the falcata would keep it on par for average damage done even with the extra -2 to hit. Seems thats not been brought up so I must be mistaken.
Higher level I assume (11+) the falcata is better and perhaps I start swapping feats at some point to swap over but overall kukri's seem best.
As far as feats go I dont think I could spare one for wakizashis, the main reason for looking at falcata larger die and x3 crit, the feat wouldnt be too bad for that but the extra -2 to hit early on does suck.
After weapon trainging, weapon focuses, magical weapons, a larger base attack pool and the level 11 ability it would be worth it. Until then I guess its kukris.
Keep in mind that you'll need Piranha Attack to do extra damage with kukri's. Light weapons don't qualify for Power attack.
TWF is extremely feat intensive. FOr simplicity you're probably better off going sword and board with a falcata, or doing the falcata/buckler build if you really want TWF (Rondolero).
==+Aelryinth
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Keep in mind that you'll need Piranha Attack to do extra damage with kukri's. Light weapons don't qualify for Power attack.
This is one of the "common knowledge" things I would like to see a stake driven through the heart of, decapitated, burned, and scattered in a river.
Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Nowhere does it say that you can't use power attack with a light weapon. Power attack works just fine with Kukris. Along with "Monks only get half damage on power attack" this is one of the things I have most often heard with the justification "I'm sure I read it somewhere but I can't remember where."
Not at all meant to be rude to the poster. I'm sure he got his information from someone else. This is just one of those things that keeps popping up on the boards, it's the dissemination of bad information that I want to put a stop to.
As far as the original question goes, if you have the feat to spare for Exotic Weapon Proficiency AND are using the Two Weapon Warrior fighter archetype, Falcatas do more DPR than Kukris. Lots of spreadsheet math, but it basically comes down to the fact that if you're using the standard TWF progression (Improved Crit, Critical Focus) the x3 Multiplier makes up for the wider crit range on Kukris and the extra +2 average damage per hit means you do more pure damage. The difference isn't huge though, and at higher levels the standard TWF is more concerned with applying critical effects (which Kukris are better at with the larger crit range).
Keep in mind that you'll need Piranha Attack to do extra damage with kukri's. Light weapons don't qualify for Power attack.
TWF is extremely feat intensive. FOr simplicity you're probably better off going sword and board with a falcata, or doing the falcata/buckler build if you really want TWF (Rondolero).
==+Aelryinth
Quite sure you CAN power attack with a light weapon.
Sword and board is in fact less simple than TWF you have less feats to play with. Sword and board cant waste a feat on the falcata, scimitar or short sword(sun swords later) all the way. In fact the shield becomes your main weapon mid way through.
If you are asking for DPR purposes go with the Falcata. If it is an issue of style the kukri is better, IMHO.
Slightly off topic, what was the Heirloom trait errata?
current version
Benefit: When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits:
proficiency with that specific weapon
a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon
a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.Note: You pay the standard gp cost for the weapon.
I think the old version gave you a masterwork weapon for free meaning you got that +1 all day long instead of the above limitations.
That's a pretty big difference. I didn't really think a masterwork weapon at level one was that unbalanced, but I suppose I'm mistaken.
I think it gave you a masterwork weapon and an additional +1 to hit as a trait bonus beyond that, didn't it?
The main reason for mentioning it was the +1 extra to hit (forgot it was masterwork) and the free weapon prof. It still seems to give the weapon prof which means it wouldnt be a needed feat.
So even at lower levels is the falcata more DPR?
I think it gave you a masterwork weapon and an additional +1 to hit as a trait bonus beyond that, didn't it?It gave a masterwork weapon, which could be simple, martial, or exotic, gave you free proficiency with that particular weapon, and gave you an additional +1 to hit with it.
Hmm, yeah, that's a bit crazy. I'd probably be okay with losing the additional +1. That seems like way too much.
IF used two handed, the falcata will do more dmg.
The only way dual wield pulls ahead of a two hander is with tons of bonus damage, like rogue sneak attack, and hoping it all lands.
the -2 to hit makes that big a difference.
Concur on Power Attack, on further read, above. It seems PF Power Attack doesn't work with Weapon Finesse, and Piranha Attack is specifically chosen as a low Str alternative with light weapons.
MM. Ah, well.
==Aelryinth
What about a scimitar in one hand and kukri in the off hand? It's the same -2/-2 penalty, but the scimitar has the same 18-20 crit range that the kukri has with some extra damage (1d6).
The kukri's or falcata's what? Their pommels? Their hilts? Their blades?
*grammar-twitch*
What about a scimitar in one hand and kukri in the off hand? It's the same -2/-2 penalty, but the scimitar has the same 18-20 crit range that the kukri has with some extra damage (1d6).
Yet you would lose the extra damage you gain from the 1d4 to the 1d6 just from weapon spec 1.
Also the kukri's or falcata's apostrophe. They seem to have a ton of them and I think they deserve m'o'r'e'.
Also the kukri's or falcata's apostrophe. They seem to have a ton of them and I think they deserve m'o'r'e'.
I must applaud your good humor in the face of my nitpicking. You're a class act.
If you're going to dual wield, you want two of the same weapon. Two kukris both with the spec tree and weapon training will do considerably more dmg then the +1 dmg you get from having a scimitar in the main hand.
You need two weapons with all the damage bonuses you can stack on them to be effective with two weapons, and that includes all weapon training and spec tree feats. Don't make your job harder for yourself.
==Aelryinth
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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It was said once at least, but I want to say it again.
If you are looking for just DPR, go falcata. You will be able to switch from duel wielding to two-handing a single weapon. Doing this allows you to vary and adjust your DPR and your damage per hit (DPH) with much more control. You wont be seeing as many critical hits as with the kukri, but it will deal more damage with a critical hit.
If you want to use critical feats I would go with kukri. Critical feats are really neat, but you need to be of a higher level to use them. I personally like Bleeding Critical, which is one of the very few things in the game that deals bleeding damage that stacks with itself. You only need a +11 BAB and Critical Focus to qualify for it. With the kukri you will be able to use the critical feats more often then with the falcata. The other reason to use a kukri is that it is a light weapon, and thus lower penalties for using two of them.
I am looking at getting crit focus, staggering crit, stunning crit, and maybe bleeding crit, which means I also should find room for crit mastery.
I think I may just stick with kukris
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After weapon trainging, weapon focuses, magical weapons, a larger base attack pool and the level 11 ability it would be worth it. Until then I guess its kukris.
Just to be clear: if you are going to dual wield, falcatas will NEVER catch up with kukris: the better attack bonus (or in this case the lower penalty for dual wielding) will always be better for TWF.
After weapon trainging, weapon focuses, magical weapons, a larger base attack pool and the level 11 ability it would be worth it. Until then I guess its kukris.Just to be clear: if you are going to dual wield, falcatas will NEVER catch up with kukris: the better attack bonus (or in this case the lower penalty for dual wielding) will always be better for TWF.
I disagree, its seems that damage wise falcatas would in fact be more damage while kukris will apply crit feats faster and more regularly.
depends what level you are talking about. The differences will be a -1 to hit on the falcatas with a 17-20 crit x3. On the kukris will be a -0 to hit with a 15-20 crit x2. The difference to hit is only 1, and with all the other fighter +'s to hit I dont think its going to be a problem.
The almost double damage die and more importantly the increase in crit multiplier is what makes the falcata out damage the kukri by a decent amount. but the extra 2 in crit range will have the kukris replenish crit mods. It wouldnt matter if I was sticking with stunning and staggering as you should crit at least once a round anyway. But If I go with bleeding crit and if the bleeding stacks, than thats the better way most likely.
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I'd like to toss in Sawtooth Sabre for possible consideration here.
Slashing 1d8 19-20 Crit range melee wpn. Not much better than a longsword. In fact, as a martial weapon, it can be used as a longsword.
However, if you're going to go two wpn style, take it as an exotic wpn and it becomes a light wpn for 2 wpn fighting purposes only. Ie, it still counts as a one handed melee wpn for power attack, but you only have light wpn penalties for your of hand. While this might not out match the falcatta on sheer damage, for 2wpn fighting purposes you really can't find any better wpn for off hand damage.
On another note, I recently learned about a rather nasty feat that could offer an alternative combat style for the win.
Thunder and Fang
As long as you are fighting with an earth breaker and a klar (and you make attacks with your klar as your offhand attack), you can fight with both weapons as if you were wielding a double weapon, and retain your shield bonus to your Armor Class granted by your klar. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your total penalty to attack.
Typically, an earthbreaker is a type of two handed wpn, but essentially, this feat allow you to weild a two handed wpn with a one handed wpn & a shield simultaneously. Now its a little feat intensive, but I think you can see the benifits.
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Actually, you can use power attack with light weapons. Piranha strike is for a low-str option.
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
If you can tell me where it limits you to one-handed and two-handed weapons in there, please do so.
Already got caught on this PF change:) No light weapons is the 3.5 version, Zephyre.
==Aelryinth
T&F is cool, i think. really want to run it for an ROTL game but nobody lets me sadpanda...
4 feats used, (weap focus earth-breaker/klar) gives you...
...a double weapon that does 2d6/1d6, x3/x2 and lets you keep your shield bonus to ac (+1)
...grumble...
anyway, your going to hit less with your falcata, but as long as you can hit with a roll of a 15 you still threaten a crit, and the +4 from that feat is a given, so you should be ok. Toss on say thundering for one of your bonuses, that's 3d8 on a crit as opposed to an extra 3 from a +1 from enchantment...
It could be worthwhile to get the d8 over the kukri for a +1 bonus. sure your to-hit is 3 less than straight enchanted kukri, but the damage is a d8 as opposed to a d4, does x3 crits, and adds +1 more from Killer trait. Maybe here is a time that an elemental bonus might be worth it...calculating...
ok, i checked on thid dpr calculator i had, and clearly i have no idea what i'm doing... so if someone who's not sleep-depraved wants to check...
It looked like thundering was worth it for a normal 2h use for the falcata, tho. 50.72 vs a 50.62 for a 10th level fighter with imp crit, crit focus, and Greater weap focus and spec
It does do 2d8 for the thunder on a crit, is only a +1 bonus, and the deafness thing is kinda cool... anyway...
can't figure out how to calculate it atm...