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If an Eidolon was killed by a death effect such as a symbol of death spell, What would be the proper ruling insofar as to whether or not the Eidolon could be summoned again the next day?
My thought is RAW - Eidolon is croaked, RAI - It should be allowed to comeback or at the very least summons the body back so the party could cast a Ressurrection spell.
If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day.
I don't know of anything that precludes this fact. It should come back with half hp. As far as I know it comes back the next day. Keep in my technically according to fluff the summoner is only summoning an aspect of her eidolon.
If an Eidolon was killed by a death effect such as a symbol of death spell, What would be the proper ruling insofar as to whether or not the Eidolon could be summoned again the next day?
My thought is RAW - Eidolon is croaked, RAI - It should be allowed to comeback or at the very least summons the body back so the party could cast a Ressurrection spell.
AFAIK its back the next day.
happydaze can you give me a notation of where it says that? I can't seem to find it.
I still don't know where you're getting that from. I'm looking under spells conjuration effects summoning and I'm reading nothing of the sort. I checked under the dm section on summons and got nothing. Every thing that I see as far as summoning is concerned is that its gets reconstructed 24 hours later.
Doing a FAQ search yields that even if an eidolon dies from con drain it restores it up to one on the following day. Whereas it can be healed via magic. Dude I'm thinking the eidolon is an exception at the least.
It's also such a blatant "@#$% you for playing the game" call that no GM that doesn't have some sort of grudge against his players is going to make it.
Permanently taking away what is perhaps the big appealing element of a class is bad pool. Hell, even fallen paladins can atone.
I also agree with Mikaze here.
If/when that happens, say you will DM the next game and curse the wizards so their spellbooks disintegrate whenever they touch or make them, and do the same with your player's clerics and their holy symbols. They'll enjoy not being able to spellcast, and the barbarians unable to enter rage. After all there are other things they can do then just those 'class features'.
I've always felt that if you're going to take away a class feature from a character semi permanently then you'd better have a dang good plot related reason to do so.
I also agree that it would be a jerk thing to do; I was just curious as to the proper ruling. That is why I included my thoughts on RAW and RAI
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Under the general rules for summoned creatures. They only get a special recovery if they are sent home from dropping under 0hp. Take them out after they are home, or in a way that doesn't do hit point damage, and you can perma-screw the Summoner.
Not true. Eidolon has specific rule about that:
When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day.
If Eidolon is slain, it returns with 1/2 hp, period. There is no exception made for killing it at home plane. The only drawback of being killed is one day delay before resummoning.
Currently there is no way of permanently kill eidolon, only trap it, and even then only with effect that affect live outsiders (for example soul bind won't work because eidolon leaves no corpse thatcould be targeted).
Also, eidolon is sent back only when reduced to -Constitution, not at zero hit points.
I don't disagree with you Drejk, but to play devils advocate you then you run into the problem of the PC's using the eidolon as a disposable creature/minesweeper with no real drawback. why not send it first through every door? or to fullfill the hit point quota on a symbol spell?
also and this is just a hypothetical musing if you petrify an eidolon then disingrate the statue are you saying the eidolon would not be dead?
So... people do that all the time with low level summon monsters. Look up petrify eidolon on the search thread for the debate on their interaction.
True they do; Jak heck even I do when playing however the Ediolon is much more powerful and versitile than low level monsters. Plus, the Summoner and Ediolon are suppose to have a sacared/special bond/affinity which I believe treating the Eidolon as a disposable minesweeper violates.
James Jacobs responded to this question on his ask anything forum here:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=289?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Que %20stions-Here#14436
He wrote "The Eidolon is dead, but a resurrection or more powerful effect should be able to fix it anyway."
So in our game the Eidolon is dead without being able to come back to life at 1/2 HP the next day.
I am trying to get some expanded clarification on why exactly. My guess by his answer is that since the Symbol of Death spell is such a powerful spell that only an equally or more powerful spell will break it.
Needless to say I was upset. Now the summoner is gimped and our party cannot afford a resurrection spell and the holy quest that we have undertook to get one may very well end up in more death.
My interpretation of the rules were when the Eidolon dies it comes back next day at 1/2 HP. It now appears that is not the case when it dies by a death effect it trumps the summoner's ability to summon it the next day at 1/2 HP.
True they do; Jak heck even I do when playing however the Ediolon is much more powerful and versitile than low level monsters. Plus, the Summoner and Ediolon are suppose to have a sacared/special bond/affinity which I believe treating the Eidolon as a disposable minesweeper violates.So the summoner or one of his friends should go in there and die instead? They don't get to come back the next day. Maybe its just me, but even my druid pcs will sacrifice an animal companion to save a human (or metahuman) life.
Besides a smart summoner is using their summon monster ability for this, not their eidolon.
Great idea in hindsight however in this particular case time was of the essence and you have to make quick decisions on the battlefield. The two rounds it would have taken to summon two creatures equal to the Eidolon's HP everyone could have died. As it stands two characters did die not counting the Eidolon and a third was mortally wounded but that is to be expected when you go to the 8th level of Hell and try to go toe to toe with an Ice Devil.
Regardless I sent the Eidolon to its death with the assumption that it would come back again the next day. It turns out I was wrong.
James Jacobs responded to this question on his ask anything forum here:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=289?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Que %20stions-Here#14436
James Jacobs is not a rule developer, and he's said several times that his answers are only what he would do in his games, and not to be taken as official rulings. (His answers about Golarion are another story.) He's also said that he isn't fond of the summoner. While it's always interesting to get his opinion (and easier than with anyone else), you shouldn't screw over a character because of it.
Personally, the very worst case scenario I would allow is o deprive the summoner of his eidolon until the next time he can assign its evolution points, because every time he does, he calls a different aspect of the same creature.
why not send it first through every door? or to fullfill the hit point quota on a symbol spell?
Because you can summon 1d4+1 riding dogs to shove into traps? The eidolon can be used for so much better things than trap-fodder.
One of my players for example uses his eidolon as the party's primary melee combatant. She's almost on part with the rage+bull's strength barbarian, except unlike the barbarian she's at that level of power ALL THE TIME.
James Jacobs responded to this question on his ask anything forum here:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=289?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Que %20stions-Here#14436
James Jacobs is not a rule developer, and he's said several times that his answers are only what he would do in his games, and not to be taken as official rulings. (His answers about Golarion are another story.) He's also said that he isn't fond of the summoner. While it's always interesting to get his opinion (and easier than with anyone else), you shouldn't screw over a character because of it.
Personally, the very worst case scenario I would allow is o deprive the summoner of his eidolon until the next time he can assign its evolution points, because every time he does, he calls a different aspect of the same creature.
He is the Creative Director that is about all I know. I don't know how much that extends to officially enforcing rules or about his personal feelings on the summoner. My DM armed with the comment above made this ruling about my summoner's Eidolon our last gaming session. He sought advice on this forum as well and then on the ask James Jacobs forum. I was under the impression that it was official, at least as official as something could get in a game where you can get an answer from the Creative Director of the game and the only real rule is to have fun.
I don't want to step on anyone's toes and after the initial shock of anger and disbelief I have come to accept the ruling. The DM has laid down the hammer and said this is what happened. I suppose I am just looking for clarity really. An explanation on why the Eidolon does not revive the next day. I consider the DM to be very fair and impartial and was very surprised by this ruling.
REVISED
Upon asking for further clarification James Jacobs replied with:
"Eidolons change the fundamental way the game works in lots of ways, for good or for ill, and so to a certain extent, these types of things are and should be a GM call.
A strict reading of the rules as written, though, would indeed indicate that an eidolon slain by a death effect can come back normal the next day at half hit points."
Which is all that I wanted to be clarified really. Now armed with this new statement I can try to appeal to my DM's sense of sticking to the rules as written and hope to possibly overturn his ruling. If not at least I have the satisfaction of knowing that the guy that he turned to make the ruling in the first place agrees with me that a strict reading of the rules indicate that an eidolon slain by a death effect can come back normal the next day at half hit points.
Thanks guys
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1.ok so What happens if a ediolon is effected by a poison or disease
2. does it cure when i dismiss or kill it ?
3. if an Ediolon keeps its disease untill cured can it become a lycanthope
4. I would hate to have to kill my eidolonjust to have it usefull again.
5. how does an Ediolon cure stat damage, level drain , or perment effects such as petrified
Eidolons raise a lot of questions. For home games, any decent GM should be able to answer these questions up front (letting a player know whether or not to play a Summoner). The problem is PFS play. I have no answers here.
As written, they should come back if hit by a death effect - yet James Jacobs said otherwise (so, likely missed editing or such thing wasn't thought of during playtesting). Mistakes happen.
Cure spells are oddly, conjuration spells. So it only makes sense that conjuration spells can work on conjured beings.
Petrification, or even equipping an Eidolon raises lots of questions.
For my home games (warning - house rules) I say that petrification and similar "permanent" effects starts the 24 hour clock should the Summoner be smart enough to dismiss the being. Ability damage remains for the summoned aspect until the aspect is restored - yet using the spell "Summon Eidolon" sidesteps it as it is another aspect (and can be augmented summons to boot). If you want to permanently equip or destroy an Eidolon, someone must find out what Plane - and where on the Plane the Eidolon is, then gate or plane shift to it. High level magic, yet worth it to give your Eidolon that magic necklace or whatever. Usually not worth it to kill an opponent's Eidolon as it is easier to just kill the Summoner (And should be very carefully used if it becomes a plotpoint for a PC group to protect the "true" Eidolon from enemy attack).
The Eidolon is a class feature, and unlike mounts, animal companions, or cohorts, there is no mention of it being replaceable. Clerics and Paladins can atone. Not sure if Monks can regain their abilities due to alignment shenanigans. The point is, taking away an Eidolon is pretty low and should be *very* carefully weighed. Easier just to tell a player not to play a Summoner, or gently ask them not to use the Eidolon as a Deux ex Machina (or at all) - that way a player knows what to expect up front.
the fluff says that you summon an aspect of your eidolon, not the actual eidolon... so i'd say it's back in normal time.
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I don't disagree with you Drejk, but to play devils advocate you then you run into the problem of the PC's using the eidolon as a disposable creature/minesweeper with no real drawback. why not send it first through every door? or to fullfill the hit point quota on a symbol spell?
Why would the summoner sacrifice his eidolon when he access to summon monster?
The only place that an inability to bring somebody back from death is mentioned is in the context of the Raise Dead spell. Since you would never have reason to resort to that spell to bring an eidolon back (and could not do so even if you wanted to), it should not matter whether an eidolon is killed by a death effect or by other means.
can an eidolon become a lycantrhope ?
if so how would the character pay for the now enhanced creature ?
Only if the eidolon is a humanoid. So far, we only have outsider and fey eidolons.