I might come off as a bit slow in this post, but my problem is this:
My group (I'm the GM) consists of five level 5 characters. Let's say I want to create an evil mirror party for them to have a showdown with. How much XP would that be, and what CR would the mirror party be?
Let's say I created five NPCs, all at level 5, with normal PC class levels (one fighter, one rogue, and so on)... my book says they would be considered CR 4 apiece, but added together a CR 8 - can this be right? There's a difference in XP value there: CL 8 = 4800 XP, while CR 4 x 5 = 1200 XP x five (= 6000).
I honestly don't get it. I might just be really bad at maths.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Since 6,000 XP doesn't correspond directly to a specific CR, you have to feel out what the actual challenge rating of the encounter is (you'll note the CR equivalency table doesn't list 5 creatures; the math never works out to get a perfect CR value with 5). In this case, it's probably closer to CR 9, which would make it extremely difficult for a 5th-level party.
If the enemies are built as a true mirror party with PC-level wealth instead of NPC-level wealth, they'd each get a +1 boost to their CRs, making the encounter a CR ~10 encounter. APL+3 is considered an epic difficulty, so be very careful with an encounter like this.
OK, sure... but to further complicate: I've tried this before (at level 3) and it wasn't a challenge in the least. The mirror party got the crap kicked out of them in five rounds and it was in no way worth the XP or loot the group got from them. And yes, they were pretty well made, with PC gear and decent stats. They even ran as a smooth combat unit since I played them all myself. Of course, luck played into it with the die rolls, but still! I think they should have lasted a bit longer.
It frustrates me that I can't seem to make any difficult encounters without having to "overdo" it according to the progression tables. And why doesn't the XP value tables correspond? I would have understood little differences, but a difference of 1/5 is kind of a big deal.
As a DM, a lot of my tricks and tools to make more difficult encounters for a high powered party involve templates. Things like fiendish, which at low level doesnt adjust CR at all.
The thing is, theoretically a shadow party has a 50/50 chance of beating your PCs to a pulp. that IS an epic encounter. Luck didnt go your way, and thats fine, but its very difficult to argue that a 50% chance of TPK (since they have all the abilities and gear your guys do, theres no reason they cant) is dangerous.
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This example showcases a confusing fact that has been around since 3.0
Why is it a group of 5th level characters (non or player) is not an adequately rated challenge for 5th level? If I were to make exact duplicates of my players and pit that group against them and they won, the common sense part of me would award a CR5 experience, but /shrug I know by some obscure rule I never bothered to memorize this is wrong, but it feels right.
edited for grammar
Yeah, I'm fine with it being a good challenge in theory. :)
My real question was why the XP tables don't seem to add up, though. Am I the only one who doesn't get it?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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You can make any number of combinations of creatures of different CRs and get lots of totals that don't directly coincide with a CR on the table. What matters is that the PCs get the XP granted by each creature, trap, or hazard, regardless of how those totals work out. If you're concerned that the given situation will result in a difference of a few hundred from a CR 9 encounter, add a CR 1 riding dog to the encounter.
Ultimately, you should build an encounter that works for you and the party and apply whatever XP those challenges provide and worry less about what the tables say. They're already designed for a party of 4, so you should adjust difficulty to compensate for the extra PC anyway.
It frustrates me that I can't seem to make any difficult encounters without having to "overdo" it according to the progression tables.
For "normal" encounters involving a CR close to APL, try to have your bad dudes setup in beneficial terrain or tactically beneficial locations. Terrain can make a big difference. Even just having a bunch of ranged guys in a position of cover can make an encounter tougher. Adding a couple simple traps that add further havoc is also fun.
Aim to have more than one encounter per day. When a party can "go nova" and blow all of their resources in a single encounter, it will trivialize the encounter. Throw a couple weak encounters at the party to force them to use some resources, then have something more challenging up ahead so they aren't completely fresh when they reach it.
You may also consider giving a few of your bad dudes some kind of means of buffing. Whether that's with the occasional bad guy sorcerer/cleric casting some spells, or whether a few of the more "brutish" types carry around a potion of bulls strength or invisibility, it can add some to the challenge.
Throw creatures at the party that have different strengths and weaknesses. Incorpreal undead, for instance, are a real headache. They take half damage from most sources, can move through terrain, and often attack touch ACs. Likewise, creatures that cause status effects or ability damage can be fun and weaken the party up so a later encounter will feel more challenging.
Something to avoid: A single high CR creature. Action economy goes to the party. If you want to have a single powerful creature, try to also include a handful of weak little minions to absorb damage, get into flanking positions, and generally cause havoc.
Also, be sure not to over saturate your players with wealth/items. Gear will increase the power level of the party significantly.
As someone else suggested, I would expect an exact mirror party to have a 50% chance of outright killing the entire party, or perhaps even higher chance as you can move the group as a very tactical group and perhaps give them environmental advantages. It's kind of up to the dice on that one. Be careful.
Yar!
The XP table is (apparently) not lining up because of a few reasons.
The tables for encounter CR were designed as an encounter building aid. The assumption is that you build the encounter the opposite way you currently are. That is, you decide what the CR of the encounter should be first, then find out how much exp that encounter should give, then build the individual creatures using that as your limit. You are choosing the creatures first, then determining their individual CR, then discovering that the table does not include that... because it was not designed to be used that way.
Also: most of the XP table is a generalization used for quick reference. There is NO entry for 5 creatures of the same CR. If you use the general/abstract XP with an encounter that is not listed, you will not get exact results. Your 5 CR 4 creature encounter has an XP value of 6000, and the encounter CR is somewhere between CR 8 and CR 9.
The table for groups of same CR creatures being equal to a higher CR actually DOES line up, it just does not include fractions of CR's above 1 nor odd number combinations. But if you look at the math for all the ones they DO have listed, you will see that it all works out to the exact same XP value (ie: adding up the individual XP for 4 same CR creatures DOES equal the exact same XP value of a CR 8 encounter (4 creatures = CR+4). Thus, if you want exact, you should use individual creature CR's and add the XP values of each together. For determining encounter CR, this means you will get numbers not shown on the table (in between CR values), and that's OK. Again, the assumption of those tables is that you are building encounters CR first and filling in creatures to meet that CR, not creatures first as seeing what CR they become together.
Why was it easy for the players to beat the mirror party? I honestly do not have enough details on what exactly happened in your game to help with that. It could have been pure dumb luck combined with really good tactics. Perhaps they synergized better, or focused on the right things at the right times. Was everyone (PCs and enemies) on their own initiatives, or was one group lumped together? Tactics change alot when you can see the results of previous actions and counter action before you go, while conversely not allowing reactions by all going at once can mean being unable to save one or two members of your party, vastly swaying the tides of battle (this goes both ways, so luck in involved here as well, not just in die rolls).
Personally, I find for 5 PCs, I'm regularly throwing APL+2 and +3 to create the passable challenge that most people seem to expect with APL+0 encounter. Of course, after 5 of these with no breaks, they are on the end of their leash. If the party is fresh, a single encounter of APL+5 and higher is when things start to get deadly (for my group, at least), but this is also LARGELY dependent on the group of players + the group of characters vs the individual creatures that make up the encounter. Monster X + Monster Y will not always provide the same challenge to Party A as to Party B, nor to Party A played by group 1 vs Party A played by group 2.
CR is VERY ballpark, not exact.
~P
Thanks for the advice. Istill find it puzzling that a CR 5 creature isn't as much of a challenge and I normally find that numbers make a challenge far more than the actual CR value does.
Pirate: I started out calculating APL and picking appropriate CRs from that, but quickly found that the actual challenge was a lot less than I expected. So instead I go through what is appropriate for the environment and try to pick something that can work in a monster group, but in urban adventures I really need those NPCs with levels... not every day you go looking for an owlbear in the city park, y'know?
Deranger: I have also concluded that large numbers is the key to "winning", especially when they pack a certain CR apiece so they're not just pushovers who couldn't hit a barn door. That, and anything that flies or has poison, since those are the party's weaknesses atm.
Thanks for the advice. Istill find it puzzling that a CR 5 creature isn't as much of a challenge and I normally find that numbers make a challenge far more than the actual CR value does.
The issue you have is partly that CR doesn't mean "This is a good challenge for a party of this level." It means "This is a fight that the party should be able to beat, after spending approximately a quarter of their daily resources." A CR 5 fight should cost a 5th level party something like one each of 1st and 3rd level spells from the wizard, one CLW, one 2nd level buff, and a channel from the cleric, and so on. A few resources they won't get back until they rest, maybe a scary moment when the monster(s) get a crit on an injured rogue, but overall, nothing too worrisome. If you throw 5 CR 5 encounters against a level 5 party (allowing time for minute/level spells to run out between them), and by the end they're saying "We're still good to go - where's the challenge?", then you might have a problem. But in general, by that point the party will be saying "Well, I'm running out of healing, and you've only got one fireball left. Maybe we should camp for the night."
The other part of the problem is action economy. If a single monster acts once for every four times the party acts (even if each member of the party only acts once), then the monster has to be able to survive having every member of the party beat on him. With two monsters (or more), or monsters that crowd-control the party, or monsters that do so much damage that a party member or two is forced into being entirely defensive ("I can't buff you, I have to heal the fighter or he dies"), then it works better. On the other hand, you can go too far, to the point that the monsters aren't a threat at all, even if their numbers say they should be. I had a 14th level party kill an army of 150 3rd level orcs in 3-4 rounds. It took some high level spells, but they did it without too much trouble. (Of course, they were only the distraction, but that's another story...)
This could be shorter what everyone else is saying, but realize APL is apples and CR is oranges. They're not equivalents, they're intentionally asymmetrical.
The system is designed to make all encounters 1-5 power increments weaker than the strength of the party (easy encounters 5 increments weaker, boss fights only 1 increment weaker). No encounter is intended to be an even fight, that's why making a truly even fight, the charts won't seem to work.