hi,
a little critique to my brute-rogue with a barbarian-dip would be appriciated.
currently i´m at level 3. i rolled
str 17
dex 16
con 15
int 13
wis 12
cha 6
i took the swashbuckler archetype at lvl 1 and picked up greatsword proficiency. i m planning to take the scout archetype at lvl4 to do sneak-attack-damage more often. lvl 9to10 would be the dip into barb. since we houseruled vital strike to work with spring attack i tried to make some kind of a one-hit-wonder ;)
i also try to get UMD up as high as possible (kinda sucks with that cha) to use a wand of lead blade/ lesser restoration at level 10 to get damage up and be able to rage more often.
1. improved ini, dodge
2. weapon training
3. power attack
4. ct=furious focus, scouts charge
5. precise strike
6. offensive defense, powerfull sneak
7. mobility
8. ct=vital strike, skirmisher
9. furious finish, rage , fast movement
10. uncanny dodge, roused anger
11. spring attack
12. opportunist or crippling strike or deadly sneak
13. shadow strike
14. feat=improved vital strike, rogue talent
since this is my first real pathfinder build any advice would be nice
cheers
edit: CT=combat trick rogue talent and i took the alternate favored class benefit to get +1/6 rogue talent per lvl
You can only take Combat Trick once.
Weapon Training is from a rogue talent, Trikk.
yeah its the rogue talent weapon training and 2x combat training is from swashbuckler
we´ re a pretty meele-heavy group (monk/paladin/fighter/cleric/ranger) so me springing around shouldnt be a problem
i m putting all ranks in disable device and perception so i hope they ll be high enough
You can't use Offensive Defense and Powerful Sneak and all those other talents, they all affect Sneak Attack iirc.
Why cant i use them?
Because they both modify sneak attack. Plus, powerful sneak is actually a really bad ability that actually lowers your damage in a round.
Powerful Sneak actually ups the dice to 3.66666, rather than 3.5. Yes, you get all of .16 more damage for taking a -2 to hit. And that's never worth it. Deadly Sneak gives .5 extra per die, which isn't so horrible. But that -2 hurts a lot. I've seen builds double in damage due to that +2.
yeah powerfull sneak is realy a terrible choice i think i never read it properly, just saw the plus in damage and ignored the penalty
so maybe sth like trap spotter/canny observer to make up for the lost trapsense
also fast stealth, bleeding attack( dunno if its useful at higher levels) or offensive defense (in case i cant move too much) sound quite ok
It's like paying to be worse.
it actually is :D
i think i´ll stick with trap spotter and fast stealth or offensive defense (gotta look at my AC and how often i use stealth at lvl6 to decide)
is there any way to improved this build damagewise while sticking with rogue most of the time?
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Use proper capitalization when you post, please: it makes it easier for us to understand what you are trying to say.
Since you are looking at taking a teamwork feat (presumably you have a teamwork buddy in the group, ready to take the same feats?), I would suggest Outflank instead of Precise Strike. The bonus to attack is more important to this build than the bonus to damage.
You have to focus very hard on offense in order to do reasonable damage as a rogue: they are surprisingly weak on the damage scale "out of the box". At the same time, focusing on offense as a rogue means you are going to be pretty squishy, relative to all of your heavy-armor wearing friends. That's the conundrum of the Pathfinder rogue.
My suggestion for a brute, 2-handing rogue would be to take 5 levels of fighter (base fighter, no archetype). 5 levels of fighter gives you 3 bonus combat feats, as well as a medium and heavy armor access, as well as access to Weapon Specialization and the fighter class feature Weapon Training. Weapon Training (WT) gives you +1 bonuses to attack and damage with your choice of weapon classes (heavy blades in this case). Weapon Training is also extremely useful when you combine it with Gloves of Dueling, which increase your WT damage bonuses by +2.
Armor Training and heavy armor proficiency are very important to a high STR, medium DEX rogue, such as the one you are building. After you hit level 3 of base Fighter, you can get a Sash of the War Champion (4K GP) that allows you to wear heavy armor without a penalty to movement -- and allowing you to utilize an extra point f your DEX. This means that you brute can still be mobile in full plate --- and can use Acrobatics to tumble around for flank -- while maintaining a decent AC. That's huge for this build.
Note that wearing heavy armor precludes the use of Evasion. If you want to stick with Evasion, three levels of Weapon Master Fighter archetype works well, giving you weapon training and medium armor proficiency, so that you can use a Mithral Breastplate in place of the previously suggested Plate + Sash of the War Champion.
Since you already have 3 levels of rogue, I would suggest something like this:
1) R1 - Improved Init, Dodge; +1d6 Sneak Attack
2) R2 - Weapon Training (Rogue); Evasion
3) R3 - Power Attack; +2d6 Sneak Attack
4) F1 - Toughness
5) F2 - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
6) R4 - Uncanny Dodge,Fury's Fall (TALENT/Feat)
7) F3 - Armor Training 1, Greater Trip
8) F4 - Outflank
9) F5 Weapon Specialization; Weapon Training: +1/+1
10) R5 - +3d6 Sneak
11) R6 - Iron Will; TALENT
12) R7 +4d6 Sneak + Improved Critical
13) R8 TALENT, Great Fortitude
14) R9 +5d6 Sneak
I got used to lazy writing on the internet. I will try to do better this time.
Your build seems solid but it kind of misses the thing I wanted to achieve. I want a mobile guy that hits with single devastating strikes.
On one hit, dealt to a flatfooted foe, mine would do an avarage 73 points of damage with the Greatsword I am currently using. Yours would do around 40 if my math is right. Assuming lvl 14, str 20, a normal Greatsword and no other items.
Forgoing that one Sneak Attack die for Outflank, if our fighter is willing to take it is a good idea, espacially combined with Opportunist and Combat Reflexes.
I get Medium Armor Prof from Barb as I am aiming for that Mithral Breastplate.
More damage on that single hit without raging would be nice, cause I can use Furios Focus at most every second round, if I cant convince the Cleric to cast Lesser Restoration on me every round. :P
Edit: Also the mid BAB and the Will Save are a problem but I can live with some weaknesses.
Because I'm lazy and don't want to read anything I'll probably repeat what other people have said.
I would suggest Thug rogue. The abilities are pretty sweet. Sickening opponents is bad news. Be a half-orc, you get a +2 to intimidate and Falchion weapon proficiency. Then take the Toothy trait, giving you a second attack and possible second sneak attack in a round.
If at ALL possible, take Cornugon Smash. Combined with the Thug archetype you can make everyone you hit Shaken AND Sickened. Which is just like cream for casters to SoD that guy in half.
Totally take a level or two in Barbarian. You can take (and I forget the name) the feat that lets you add Str to Intimidate, and with Cornugon smash you just make everyone run away from you when you hit them. It's sweet. Also, take Superstition. Even at +2 it's probably worth it as a rage power.
You can then go Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses. Whenever you make an enemy Shaken through Cornugon Smash they are then susceptible to Sneak Attack. I mean it's a brutal combo, but with the right Rogue talents you ought to be able to pull it off by 7th level?
Because I'm lazy and don't want to read anything I'll probably repeat what other people have said.
I would suggest Thug rogue. The abilities are pretty sweet. Sickening opponents is bad news. Be a half-orc, you get a +2 to intimidate and Falchion weapon proficiency. Then take the Toothy trait, giving you a second attack and possible second sneak attack in a round.
If at ALL possible, take Cornugon Smash. Combined with the Thug archetype you can make everyone you hit Shaken AND Sickened. Which is just like cream for casters to SoD that guy in half.
Totally take a level or two in Barbarian. You can take (and I forget the name) the feat that lets you add Str to Intimidate, and with Cornugon smash you just make everyone run away from you when you hit them. It's sweet. Also, take Superstition. Even at +2 it's probably worth it as a rage power.
You can then go Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses. Whenever you make an enemy Shaken through Cornugon Smash they are then susceptible to Sneak Attack. I mean it's a brutal combo, but with the right Rogue talents you ought to be able to pull it off by 7th level?
The feat is called Intimidating Prowess.Also,you could go with the Lucerne Hammer and use this feat combo:Bludgeoner+Sap Adept+Sap Master=Dead.Lots of dead.With this,as a 13th level rogue you could get 14d6+28 damage from sneak attack alone.
Doesn't that only do nonlethal SA damage though?
Yes...Doesn't that only do nonlethal SA damage though?Because I'm lazy and don't want to read anything I'll probably repeat what other people have said.
I would suggest Thug rogue. The abilities are pretty sweet. Sickening opponents is bad news. Be a half-orc, you get a +2 to intimidate and Falchion weapon proficiency. Then take the Toothy trait, giving you a second attack and possible second sneak attack in a round.
If at ALL possible, take Cornugon Smash. Combined with the Thug archetype you can make everyone you hit Shaken AND Sickened. Which is just like cream for casters to SoD that guy in half.
Totally take a level or two in Barbarian. You can take (and I forget the name) the feat that lets you add Str to Intimidate, and with Cornugon smash you just make everyone run away from you when you hit them. It's sweet. Also, take Superstition. Even at +2 it's probably worth it as a rage power.
You can then go Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses. Whenever you make an enemy Shaken through Cornugon Smash they are then susceptible to Sneak Attack. I mean it's a brutal combo, but with the right Rogue talents you ought to be able to pull it off by 7th level?
The feat is called Intimidating Prowess.Also,you could go with the Lucerne Hammer and use this feat combo:Bludgeoner+Sap Adept+Sap Master=Dead.Lots of dead.With this,as a 13th level rogue you could get 14d6+28 damage from sneak attack alone.
Well the things that PF opened up for Rogues to sneak attack are still, by and large, immune to nonlethal (constructs and undead). At the level you're pulling that off there is likely to be quite a bit of that.
Granted my build relies on things being fearable, so it's just more of the same. Anything vulnerable to nonlethal will be taken out quicker though, which I appreciate.
Yeah if your DM is willing to let you use Vital Strike line while Spring Attacking, that's going to be very good damage, as long as you can always spring into a flank, so that you get your sneak dice.
Skirmisher from the Scout-Archetype does that for me. Sneak Attack everytime I spring around.
More attacks would be more damage indeed, I already thought about taking Barbarian 10 from level 4 on, to get to the Greater Beast Totem for Pounce and more BAB.
The Thug you suggested sounds fun aswell, but as said I already took the first 3 levels so thats kinda impossible, if I dont have to roll a new one (cha 6 doesnt help either).
Also,you could go with the Lucerne Hammer and use this feat combo:Bludgeoner+Sap Adept+Sap Master=Dead.Lots of dead.With this,as a 13th level rogue you could get 14d6+28 damage from sneak attack alone.
Sounds nice, as i dont think there will be too much immune to nonlethal damage in our campaign. Though I must convince our DM to let me switch Weapon Training to Lucerne Hammer.
I'd go with the Scout archetype myself. Being able to sneak attack on a charge gives you a very easy charge-o-matic build.
I'd go with the Scout archetype myself. Being able to sneak attack on a charge gives you a very easy charge-o-matic build.
For the record you can TOTALLY be a thug AND a scout :D
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Yeah if your DM is willing to let you use Vital Strike line while Spring Attacking, that's going to be very good damage, as long as you can always spring into a flank, so that you get your sneak dice.Skirmisher from the Scout-Archetype does that for me. Sneak Attack everytime I spring around.
My bad: I was aware that Scouts got sneak dice when they charge (at level 4), but wasn't ware of the Skirmisher ability at level 8 (sneak dice anytime you move more than 10'). That's pretty solid. Once you get to the point where your BAB is high enough to do three attacks/round (admittedly very late if you go straight rogue), you'll do a lot better damage standing in the hole and swinging three times, rather than springing in and out. But... with your build, you won't have the defenses to stand in the pocket: a full attack will likely drop you.
AC and HP are the biggest problems imo.
AC shouldnt be that big a problem because when using Offensive Defense I get a overall Dodge Bonus if I get the ability right.
For HP and Survivability I thought about either getting Toughness at some Point or going Rogue4/Barb11 for more attacks and pounce combined with Scouts Charge.
Also does Outflank work in combination with Combat Reflexes an Opportunist?
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Opportunist is an advanced rogue talent that cant be taken unless you have 10 levels of rogue. Per the rules if you had both abilities (Opportunist and Outflank), I don't think you would get two attacks off of your flanking buddies' crit, but I'm not positive.
Pouncing with Scout's Charge would be pretty devastating!
So ... to bring this post back to life. :)
I hit lvl 5 in our last session and was kind of forced to get Trapfinding back. Also our GM started reading this boards too and disallowed Vital Strike + Spring Attack. So I dont realy know how to continue my character from now on.
Atm "Dirge" is Rogue(Swashbuckler/Scout)4 / Ranger(Trapper)1.
I thought about taking another 1-2 levels of Rogue and then taking at least 3 levels of Horizon Walker to get Dimensional Agility++, to keep the idea of a mobile fighter.
Sth like Rogue4/Ranger1/Rogue1/Horizon Walker 3/Rogue 1/???
As a matter of fact I could have gotten Trapfinding from several other sources but with a CHA-score of "5" they didnt seem worth it.
Any suggestions on how else I could achieve a mobile fighter/skill monkey with the 5 levels I already have?
Other than that is the Dimensional Feat chain realy worth it in practiced play? And would it be better to just dip Horizon Walker or take it to lvl10?
To Deadly Sneak's credit, at lvls 15+, it's actually better than Power Attack, and gives full returns on off hand-weapons. Actually, if you TWF, Deadly Sneak is better than Power Attack from lvl 11+, so as soon as you can get it.
Powerful sneak is pretty awful, though. Maybe if the penalty was halved, (and increased to -2 for Deadly Sneak)