Yes there are many differing origins among relatively similar creatures in Golarion, but I'm curious if evolution plays a role whatsoever. Certainly the dwarves aren't evolving because Torag created them as he wanted them, the duergar are Droskar's manipulations. But do they have DNA? They have similar anatomy to other humans.
I like to think that unless some part of a creature is specifically magical it should have structurally sound anatomy. And even with 'magic bits' they should be fairly analagous to real examples if possible.
So let's look at the extreme where any classification of body parts is obviously non-existant. A water elemental still would have an optimal flow of water within its body, preventing unnecessary turbulence as it shifts between forms, varying density and pressure of its own contents. This would be the closest semblance of structure that anatomy attempts.
How would academic Golarans classify all known creatures(or mortals rather)? That is probably the right question to ask.
My theory would be that anything except for outsiders (excluding native outsiders), with a corporeal anatomy would have to have some form of consistant building blocks (DNA, RNA, etc.). However genetics must be fairly mutable in order to account for the various half-breed races and crossbreeds, since real world genetics tend to result in sterile half-breeds (mules, ligers, tigons, to name three).
That said I think that scholars on Golarion would probably use a Linaean taxonomic structure based on gross physical anatomy and not a Darwinian system based on fine details, observable habits, and geographic location.
Undead and Outsiders are special cases, and would probably be classified by plane of origin and associated creatures for outsiders and nercomatic energy signature, method of creation, feeding, and destruction for undead, with arcane spellcasters being the most likely to engage in such studies.
My theory would be that anything except for outsiders (excluding native outsiders), with a corporeal anatomy would have to have some form of consistant building blocks (DNA, RNA, etc.). However genetics must be fairly mutable in order to account for the various half-breed races and crossbreeds, since real world genetics tend to result in sterile half-breeds (mules, ligers, tigons, to name three).
That said I think that scholars on Golarion would probably use a Linaean taxonomic structure based on gross physical anatomy and not a Darwinian system based on fine details, observable habits, and geographic location.
Undead and Outsiders are special cases, and would probably be classified by plane of origin and associated creatures for outsiders and nercomatic energy signature, method of creation, feeding, and destruction for undead, with arcane spellcasters being the most likely to engage in such studies.
Yeah a deific Linaean taxonomy looks more appropriate. Initially I wanted to set up a sort of phylogeny but it'd be impossible to group everything as clades when there is so much intermingling of species.
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I've been working on a genetics/taxonomic list of monsters off-and-on since the 2E Monstrous Compendium came out in 1990 with its Habitat/ Society & Ecology sections for every monster.
The purpose being to answer where all life in the game comes from, genetically, in a comprehensive taxonomy.
For game purposes, any mechanics that rely on monster Type become completely unusable on my lists. Favored Enemy, for example, can not work as written because the various Types and Subtypes are not remotely equitable (Heck, they suck for balance now.) In my lists it's more unbalanced.
I break things down into a few main categories such as hominid, fey, outsider and "created." Created monsters are ones that somewhere in history were created or manipulated like Mongrelmen or Broken Ones but for me I include orcs and gnolls and such (evil wizard created the orc with human & pig, etc., etc.).
Somethings just don't seem to fit well (Ormyr, Jackalwere, etc.)
But I like it.
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WERay, I'd love to see what you've come up with, if there's a way to share some of it.
Also, don't confine yourselves to what we think of genetics today, with Darwin/Wallace evolution and Mendelian genetics. Maybe Lamarckian genetics (inheritance of acquired traits) works and leads to much faster rates of adaptation, or background magic levels work like radiation and speed the process, even guiding it in non-random ways. Exposure to fire magic leads to fire-prone DNA, like sorcerous blooodlines for whole species! Or the gods continue tinkering with evolution, guiding the development of certain species. That's one reason why WERay's taxonomy would be interesting - if gods and magic affect evolution, what is considered to be a natural animal and a magical beast, or even an aberration might need some re-thinking.
WERay, I'd love to see what you've come up with, if there's a way to share some of it.
Also, don't confine yourselves to what we think of genetics today, with Darwin/Wallace evolution and Mendelian genetics. Maybe Lamarckian genetics (inheritance of acquired traits) works and leads to much faster rates of adaptation, or background magic levels work like radiation and speed the process, even guiding it in non-random ways. Exposure to fire magic leads to fire-prone DNA, like sorcerous blooodlines for whole species! Or the gods continue tinkering with evolution, guiding the development of certain species. That's one reason why WERay's taxonomy would be interesting - if gods and magic affect evolution, what is considered to be a natural animal and a magical beast, or even an aberration might need some re-thinking.
Exactly. I'd be interested in seeing what you've got too WERay.
The one I'm starting is Pathfinder specific(as if ingame characters were developing a classification) and factors in things like the progression of the soul, deity influence and mostly ignoring mechanics.Native outsiders are generally still material creatures in a RP sense. One exception I've found to that specifically is the weakest Genies, the Janni. They are still comprised of the essence of the elemental planes, but because it is all four they are tied to the material plane instead. So using the Game machanics will create too many exceptions, and in-game characters have no sense of these things =)
And since unintelligent undead are usually soulless animated bodies of negative energy they would fit along the same category as constructs. Intelligent, corporeal undead however are another material progression of the soul. Ghosts and other incorporeal undead ARE souls with no material component. How much of these things a scholar would know will influence this classification too.
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I'll try, it's currently a few individual lists (some several years old) and none really connected to the other -- kinda like every couple years I want to take a look and can't find a couple lists and just make a brand new one, to be lost a couple years later.
I'll get something up here tonight, though, while I'm watching the replay of the ManU vs Newcastle game.
Just remember, it doesn't really have much explanation -- just a list of monsters; I'll try to pretty it up, though.
(Actually, this could be smart of me -- if I put it here I'll always be able to access it.)
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NOTE: This is not a comprehensive list
NOTE: Because the following is so me-centric, the best it may help others may be a consideration of the categories.
NOTE: Deities never made nothin' (just cursed some folks long, long ago).
Hominid
.........HomoGenus:
Human .... Grimlock (Underdark Evolution)
Dwarf .... Duergar (Underdark Evolution)
Kender .... Morlock (Underdark Evolution)
Troglodyte (HomoErectus -- I dunno what idiot said these were lizards but he was an idiot; they're cavemen.)
Ogre
Sasquatch
Yeti (w/ Fey connections) .... Quaggoth (Underdark Evolution)
Fey
......... Seelie:
Elf .... Drow (Underdark Evolution)
Gnome .... Svirfnebin (Underdark Evolution)
Spriggan
Korred
Satyr
......... Unseelie:
Grimlin .... Mite (Underdark Evolution)
Kobold
Derro (Unseelie spontaneous transformation of some evil, vile gnomes -- see Pathfinder Drow)
Red Cap
Jermlaine
Jinkin
Pugwampi
Mandrake
......... Faerie:
Pixie
Nymph
Sprite
Dryad
Grig
Unicorn
Sea Elves
Fey Cat
......... Goblinoid:
Goblin
Hobgoblin
Norker
Bugbear
Created Monsters (created through magic but can procreate)
......... Humanoids:
Mongrelmen
Broken Ones
Meenlocks
Mojh
......... Anthropomorphics:
Orc (human w/ pig)
Gnoll (human w/ hyena)
Minotaur
Crabmen
Loxo
Giff
Litorian (specific great cat *see Rakasta)
Abeil
......... Unnatural:
Troll (wizard created as immune-to-damage soldier)
Beholder (aboleth created)
Owlbear
Githyanki (mind flayer created, 1/2 human / 1/2 deva)
Otyugh
Grell
Naga (still unsure on this one, I just learned some new info that makes me reconsider)
Cockatrice
Manticore
Umberhulk
Basilisk
Behir
Ettercap
Drider
Hydra (book's still open in my mind on whether this goes here or elsewhere)
Skum
Avolakia
Displacer Beast
Centaur
Dorvesh // Zebranaur
Wemic
Griffon
Hippogriff
Peryton
Vegepygmy
Treant
Myconid
Aklo (from the Far Realm)
......... vestigial aspect that evolved on the Prime:
Mind Flayer
Aboleth
Spell Weaver
Kopru
Darkmantle
Roper
Grick
Tarrasque
......... manifest echo that erupted from Far Realm "spirit-"stuff:
Winter Wolf
Shoggoth
Will o’ Wisp
Dark Tentacles
Doppleganger
Deepspawn
Naturally evolved (evolved naturally but not human)
......... Prime Material Humanoids:
Lizardmen
Rakasta (generic cat-like)
Dire Corby
Bullywug
Boggard (advanced Bullywug)
Grippli
Su Monster
Tengu
Sahuagin
Marrashi
Choker
Yak Folk
Gug
Lupin
......... Shadow Plane:
Dark Creeper, Stalker, Slayer
Skulk
Shadar Kai
Shadow Mastiff
Nightshade
Shadow
Varrangoin
Kyton
Urdefhan
Mothman
Shade (human, named Fetchlings in Pathfinder)
......... Abberations (not humanoid but still naturally evolved):
Bulette
Ankheg
Worg
Carrion Crawler
Rust Monster
Stirge
Locathoh .... Kuo Toa (Underdark evolution)
Morkoth
Froghemoth ("touched" by Far Realm)
Chupacabra
Thri Kreen
Formian
Howler
Remorhaz
Hook Horror
Cave Fisher
Slurk
Flumpf
Cursed (from the gods)
Medusa
Lamia
Lycanthrope
Hag
Annis (female ogre made hag)
Aranea
Dhampyr
Leucrotta
Sandman
Elemental
Dragons
Storm Giant
Cloud Giant
Stone Giant
Frost Giant
Fire Giant
Sun Giant
Shadow Giant
Azer
Pech
Immoth
Mephits
Xorn
Genasi (all 4)
Salamanders
Lava Children
Shambling Mound
Galeb Duhr
Jotunn (traditional giants, deevolved from elemental giants)
Mountain Jotun
Hill Jotun
Frost Jotun
Fire Jotun
Firbolg
Verbeeg
Formorian
Ice Troll
Cave Troll
Ormyr
Jacklewere
Mercane
Sahuagin
Tasloi
Verrick
.
.
.
Missing on this list are Fiends, Celestials and other Outsiders.
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Thumbing through I see some missing things:
Vemerak
Charda
Gelatinous Cube, Black Pudding, Flareater, Oozes
D'Ziriak
Gloomwing
Purple Worm
Remorhaz
Drake (Firedrake, Forest drake, etc)
Linnorm
Pseudodragon
Forlarren
Gargoyles are Demon-Posessed Constructs
and Undead
Skeleton
Zombie
Mummy
Ghoul
Crypt Thing
Heucuva
Mohrg
JuJu Zombie
Vampire .... Crimson Mist (burned vampire, ashes not spread)
Devourer
Ghost
Lich
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Also, something to consider is the Lovecraftian method - ;) Pathfinder lovingly and generously borrows concepts and creatures from Lovecrafts mythology for a lot of things
-Gugs, Dark Young of Shub-Niggurath, Hounds of Tindalos, Rat-Things, Scum (deep ones), their version of Ghouls is more lovecraftian than anything (thank god), Colours out of Space, Shoggoths, Men of Leng, Spiders of Leng, Shantaks, and Elder Things and at least somewhat in spirit, the Serpentfolk.
It's dropped as possible story/history hooks that the Elder Things had a hand in creating and manipulating a lot of the races of Golarion - just as they did in Lovecrafts vision of our world. Indeed, they created the Shoggoths and perhaps even some of the humanoid races, maybe even humankind itself. They, Aboleths, Serpentfolk and maybe other distant historical beings probably had a hand in manipulating the races of modern day Golarion, and maybe even still do.
First: this is totally not exhaustive in any way.
Second: this is totally not canon (though it's based on it).
Third: I don't know everything there is to know about Golarion, so I might have missed something somewhere.
ALL THAT SAID...
From what I can tell, in Golarion canon, there are one-to-five "native" hominids (humanoids), i.e. that are actually "from" Golarion and aren't "alien":
* Dwarves - this is the only "known" for sure, because their creation myths say so, and their god - the guy who actually made them - totally made them out of Golarion. Hard to get more "native" than that.
* Orcs - it seems that they existed before the dwarves, but whether or not they did so naturally is another question. Either way, the black-blood orcs are clearly the result of "alien" interference.
* Humans/Neanderthals - while Neanderthals are billed as "primitive" humans, it's unclear which came first. It's quite possible that they are a degeneration rather than the other way around. Either way, it's impossible to tell for sure if either truly originated on Golarion or not. Morlocks are a distinct degeneration from humans... indicating the human genetic code isn't too stable, over-all, which could have interesting implications, one of which is that starting from Neanderthal, human genetic code has a tendency to degenerate from "greater" to "lesser" going from neanderthal -> human -> morlock (notice they're getting smaller each time). Also possible that neanderthals somehow come from giant-kind (and might even be "pure" ogres or something similar who've never descended into inbreeding) into human kind, which would explain the similarities between the two structures, but that's pure conjecture. In any event, if Neanderthals are the "natives", humans might not be a natural evolution, but might instead be alien mutants, specially crafted by the Aboleths from the base DNA sequences (and morlocks being the ultimate degeneration from that point).
* Goblins. 'Cause, unless I missed something somewhere, we don't actually know where these little critters came from and they're everywhere. We do know that hobgoblins are "native" in the sense that they were created on Golarion from goblin stock by some artifact or another. I'm not sure about bugbears. Goblins, however, have a curious connection to Worgs (a magical beast) and goblin dogs (again) as well as Barghests, which marks them as potentially having extra-planar origins, and having "gone native" (like elves). It's really a matter of which came first: the barghest or the goblin?
* Halflings: where do these things come from? They're not really "fey" (like gnomes are)... they just kind of appeared in human society... as servants. I... what?
Anyway, all the other main ones that I can think of are mostly alien mutations or specifically created and introduced into a functioning bio-system by outside sources. (Which kind of begs the question: "where does the functioning bio-system worshipped by druids come from?", as it, too, could be an "alien" style "super-organism" crafted and loosed on a barren rock in which all current life utilizes and relies upon - which would explain the existence of aberrant druids -, or it could be a natural evolution "ex nihilo... in particular" so-to-speak.)
These barghest heroes found that when they killed mortal creatures, the drops of blood turned into goblins, and they quickly rallied these new creatures to serve them.
I think this implies that these were the first goblins.
Thanks, Nickolas! I don't have that book, so yeah.
I'd say that implies it pretty heavily, yes. So... basically goblins were created... on accident... and by murder. That explains so much.
Was this on Golarion or what? If not, that whittles it down to only the following truly "native" hominids in Golarion:
* Dwarves - for sure, but only via direct divine intervention
* Orcs - who knew? Who knows? But some are definitely "tainted".
* Neanderthals - and/or humans, but humans might be the left-over less-successful mutant experiments based on aboleth breeding experiments on Neanderthals, before coming up with the "success" that was the Azlant.
* Halfings - maybe. I mean, no one knows where they came from. That's kind of strange, and a little creepy, people.
If goblins first formed on Golarion, then they are "native" in that sense (it's hard to get more native than actually coming into existence from and in a certain place) but, like dwarves, they're created by an outside influence. Actually "natural" natives, however, as in "with no outside influence" would be limited to a possible list of orcs, neanderthals (and/or possibly humans and morlocks), and halflings.
Another question: if the goblins came from the drops of blood of mortals killed by the barghest 'heroes', were those mortals native (natural or not) to Golarion? In which case they could, to, be alien mutations in the biosystem. I'm also really curious about the origin of all life on Golarion now, and where the biosystem of the planet came from in the first place. If it sprang up without outside interference (or maybe even with only the most basic of outside interference, like direct-creation of "life", subtle guidance, or especially just making the "conditions right" to allow it), well... that, I suppose, would be "natural".
If, on the other hand, it was created truly from nothing (say, by the divine), or specifically, purposefully seeded (or accidentally "infected" or whatever) by some extra-planetary source... that brings up interesting questions on its own.
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I am HIGHLY IN FAVOR of people asking questions about monstrous evolution and ecology. That's one of my favorite parts of any fantasy world!
*Ahem*
Okay, James, then:
"Did the Golarion biosystem come about "naturally" i.e. only with the non-sentient, non-living (not undead) forces of the universe crafting them, or did it come from something planted there (purposfully or otherwise) from currently living creatures?"
"Also, would you please clarify about said things asked above (as in which (set of) living thing(s), if any, were responsible for the initial "seeding" of life, et cetera)?"
(I'll take any of the Jameses, really. But J. Sutter was the one who mentioned he loved them.)
I am HIGHLY IN FAVOR of people asking questions about monstrous evolution and ecology. That's one of my favorite parts of any fantasy world!
I've been disappointed by many depictions of Lovecraftian (especially the humanoid ones) creatures. Cthulhu is supposed to be humanoid in shape only by complete coincidence. He shouldn't have biceps and pecs etc. Does this ever bug you as much as t does me?
As an artist and somebody that studies a lot of anatomy I feel obligated to invent a completely new anatomy for these things. I don't want it to be a completely random jumble of stuff but shouldn't look human.
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*Ahem*
Okay, James, then:"Did the Golarion biosystem come about "naturally" i.e. only with the non-sentient, non-living (not undead) forces of the universe crafting them, or did it come from something planted there (purposfully or otherwise) from currently living creatures?"
I only had a chance to skim the thread--these novels won't edit themselves!--but in short, the answer is both. Golarion is a product of both evolution and intelligent design. Different life comes from different places: some creatures are created by gods, others evolve naturally from much simpler organisms, others rise spontaneously through magic, and still others wandered to this world from other planes and planets. As for who was first--well, that's a matter of theology more than biology, but Princes of Darkness offers one account.
And Nickolas--I agree that I'm often disappointed when aliens or monsters are too humanoid. It's an issue I attempted to address in the introduction to Distant Worlds.
I appreciate the feedback, James!
Now: I'm sorry, I misspoke. Did Golarion's (the planet) biosystem (not the universe), i.e., that ecosystem of the planet as a whole (or at least its base), but unique set, originate from:
a) theistic special creationism
b) theistic evolution
c) natural evolution
d) purposeful interference from aliens
e) accidental interference from aliens
This does not include all the planets of Golarion's solar system, nor the star itself which (as I understand) was lovingly crafted by the angel Sarenrae before her ascension. I'm not even talking about the other planets - just Golarion's base ecosystem. Was it a barren rock that life just sprung from? Was it a barren rock that life was seeded onto? Was it a barren rock that life was divinely imprinted into? When Golarion was first formed from whatever it is that it was formed from... was it even a barren rock (or did it, say for example, spring into existence with a few dozen trees and some grass and a neanderthal - or whatever - crafted lovingly by "hand")?
As to Cthulu looking "humanoid"... I've always enjoyed the idea that the various "musculature" elements that he's depicted with really have a very different purpose altogether (which I'm aware flies in the face of normal anatomical presumptions and understanding... which is kind of the whole, creepy point). But yes, I do understand the frustration that can come of it.
And I want that book.
As to Cthulu looking "humanoid"... I've always enjoyed the idea that the various "musculature" elements that he's depicted with really have a very different purpose altogether (which I'm aware flies in the face of normal anatomical presumptions and understanding... which is kind of the whole, creepy point). But yes, I do understand the frustration that can come of it.
The thing is, as humans, that sort of look appears natural. The human eye can pick out discrepancies in the human form more than any other creature's form so it doesn't even take much to make it look unnatural to us. Although I like the idea of a differing functionality it still goes against the core substance of the original description for Cthulhu. And then that begs the question, if that pectoralis major-looking thing DOESN'T aid in flexion/extension of the humerus then what does? Assuming these movements aren't purely by magical, which would be a copout. I wan't to see completely different anatomical joints suggesting an entirely inhuman gait.
My theory would be that anything except for outsiders (excluding native outsiders), with a corporeal anatomy would have to have some form of consistant building blocks (DNA, RNA, etc.). However genetics must be fairly mutable in order to account for the various half-breed races and crossbreeds, since real world genetics tend to result in sterile half-breeds (mules, ligers, tigons, to name three).
Just a small correction from my obsessive self. Not all female ligers and tigons are sterile. Hence the existence of ti-tigons, li-tigons and such.
Carry on!
As an aside - if there are ever any books exploring the origins of fantastical creatures through a "scientific" approach... I'm totally spending my money on it. :D
Also, neanderthals being seen as primitive humans flies in the face of current evolutionary theory. Neanderthals are cousins to humans, their contemporaries, the Cro Magnons, are our ancestors. Neanderthals are an extinct branch of the "homo" genus.
Hey all. I'm rather obsessed with taxonomies myself, so I'm gonna go through my Bestiaries and take a crack at categorizing the various flora and fauna of Golarion. I'll get back to you right-quick! :D
Hmm, should I keep Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, and Dragons in separate taxonomies from more mundane species, or plausibly incorporate them into the same tree?
I'm noticing that many members of all three groups are hexapods in some fashion, having some combination of legs, arms, or wings totaling to six. Hmm~
Hmm, should I keep Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, and Dragons in separate taxonomies from more mundane species, or plausibly incorporate them into the same tree?
I'm noticing that many members of all three groups are hexapods in some fashion, having some combination of legs, arms, or wings totaling to six. Hmm~
The same tree. The threshold for which species can no longer interbreed or mix is basically infinite(or at least I am accepting this as fact within Golarion) Magical anatomies and attributes are simply another possible part of a creatures phenotype.
About hexapod hominids. On Earth they wouldn't be biologically related to other hominids, they would be coincidentally similar via convergent evolution. With a more flexible tree as mentioned above this does not have to be the case.
Thanks.
Yeah, I came to the same conclusion. I'm almost done the basic sorting from Bestiary 1 and 2, and I'll be moving on to 3 shortly.
Now, what to do with outsiders? I think that while many of them share obvious affinities to Material Plane creatures, for the most part, they either derive directly from their respective planes, petitioners of those planes, or are transformed from other outsiders from the same or another plane.
So I'm thinking of having three trees:
EDIT:
And of course, Constructs and Undead sort of fall outside of what would be considered "life".
I'm also debating the placement of Fey and other creatures of the Feywild. There should probably have their own tree as well, meaning Elves and Gnomes would be separate from other humanoids. This isn't necessarily a problem, as each branch of the tree of life in Golarion seems to culminate in one or more groups of humanoid creatures. (Seems to be the order of the Universe. What, with the Axiomites and all.)
Lastly, certain groups, namely Dragons, seem like they are powerful/magical enough to have their branches of the tree extend beyond the material plane and sort of cover the whole multiverse.
If you use the concept of Clades instead of Trees a lot of your problems can be surmounted.
That's the main reason modern taxonomists have, for the most part, shifted to the clade system.
If you use the concept of Clades instead of Trees a lot of your problems can be surmounted.
That's the main reason modern taxonomists have, for the most part, shifted to the clade system.
Well any form of classification can be represented as a tree really. I use the word tree lightly anyway since there is no scientific classification that was made to consider species that have multiple ancestors. You are right though, cladistics does allow such a classification without breaking the definition.
If you use the concept of Clades instead of Trees a lot of your problems can be surmounted.
That's the main reason modern taxonomists have, for the most part, shifted to the clade system.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the concept of clades. :)
That doesn't stop things from having a tree-like shape though. Try going to the Tree of Life Project. (I've been obsessed with this site for years.)
Thanks, Nickolas! I don't have that book, so yeah.
I'd say that implies it pretty heavily, yes. So... basically goblins were created... on accident... and by murder. That explains so much.
Wait, wait, what about Gnolls, Kobolds, Lizardfolk, and Troglodytes? They're all humanoids and I remember reading somewhere in Golarion works that Lizardfolk and Troglodytes were two of the oldest humanoids races on Golarion and had among the earliest civilizations before they collapsed.
And aren't giants a subtype of humanoids these days, like (Human, Elf, Goblin, & Orc?) They can be affected by Charm Person these days, I hear.
Thanks, Nickolas! I don't have that book, so yeah.
I'd say that implies it pretty heavily, yes. So... basically goblins were created... on accident... and by murder. That explains so much.
Wait, wait, what about Gnolls, Kobolds, Lizardfolk, and Troglodytes? They're all humanoids and I remember reading somewhere in Golarion works that Lizardfolk and Troglodytes were two of the oldest humanoids races on Golarion and had among the earliest civilizations before they collapsed.
And aren't giants a subtype of humanoids these days, like (Human, Elf, Goblin, & Orc?) They can be affected by Charm Person these days, I hear.
The RPG mechanics don't need to be strict determining factors. I'm doing this more for the Campaign Setting and so mechanics play less a role. The subtypes are useful as a starting point but I'd argue that two creatures of different types could potentially be more related than two of the same. Many Magical Beasts can be compared more easily to an Animal, same with Monstrous Humanoids and Humanoids.
Oh, actually, excuse me. I think that my mistake came in when I misread Tacticslion saying Golarion has 3 races of "native humanoids" rather than what he actually said, "native hominids.' That excuses gnolls and the reptile-folk.
My bad.
That said, most giants are rather hominid-ish, just really big.
On Cladistics - Just wanted to get that in there. I see that my fellow taxonomy-hobbyists are up-to-date. I like to make it a point to bring it up since I was unaware of it for some time, having been educated before it was in the textbooks. :)
Hodge-Podge - Your second link is forbidden to me, I'm afraid.
On-topic - I'm tempted to start a blog written in-character doing write-ups on species using a variation on the current style of scientific write-ups.
Oh, actually, excuse me. I think that my mistake came in when I misread Tacticslion saying Golarion has 3 races of "native humanoids" rather than what he actually said, "native hominids.' That excuses gnolls and the reptile-folk.
My bad.
That said, most giants are rather hominid-ish, just really big.
Sticking strictly to game terms would put a straight jacket on any project like this. While humans and lizardfolk are both hominids in form, they are still primates and reptiles, respectively and not truly related at all. It's a matter of convergent evolution in most cases.
Most of the fun will be identifying arcane and divine influence... I'm sure that there's a reptilian-hominid race out there that IS related to humans because of divine intervention or arcane meddling.
Oh, actually, excuse me. I think that my mistake came in when I misread Tacticslion saying Golarion has 3 races of "native humanoids" rather than what he actually said, "native hominids.' That excuses gnolls and the reptile-folk.
My bad.
That said, most giants are rather hominid-ish, just really big.
Sticking strictly to game terms would put a straight jacket on any project like this. While humans and lizardfolk are both hominids in form, they are still primates and reptiles, respectively and not truly related at all. It's a matter of convergent evolution in most cases.
Most of the fun will be identifying arcane and divine influence... I'm sure that there's a reptilian-hominid race out there that IS related to humans because of divine intervention or arcane meddling.
Yes, the Nagaji, in fact.
Where are the Nagaji from?
Where are the Nagaji from?
Nagajor in Tian Xia (a vaguely SE Asian area). They were created by the Naga as a servitor race. Actually, it doesn't claim human ancestry, but it does specify they were deliberately bred in the Dragon Empires Gazetteer. Humans seem to be the most obvious stock for them.
In some ways they resemble the Yuan-Ti, but since the Howard-Lovecraft mythos' Serpentfolk have long been said to interbreed with humans, the notion of a human-snake mixture is kind of a swords and sorcery staple.
Thanks, Nickolas! I don't have that book, so yeah.
I'd say that implies it pretty heavily, yes. So... basically goblins were created... on accident... and by murder. That explains so much.
Wait, wait, what about Gnolls, Kobolds, Lizardfolk, and Troglodytes? They're all humanoids and I remember reading somewhere in Golarion works that Lizardfolk and Troglodytes were two of the oldest humanoids races on Golarion and had among the earliest civilizations before they collapsed.
And aren't giants a subtype of humanoids these days, like (Human, Elf, Goblin, & Orc?) They can be affected by Charm Person these days, I hear.
Heh, well, I did mean primate-esque hominids, rather than game-term humanoids, however I thought that Gnolls were created by Lamashtu, Kobolds were specifically by-products of dragons, and honestly... I really don't know about lizardfolk (they might be a pre-corrupt troglodyte or something).
As far a giants, what tempts me away from considering them in the first place is the same reason I was hesitant to put goblins in: they have a sub-type unique to themselves. To further suggest other in their origin, is the fact that you have elemental giants, akin to the extraplanar maelstrom and magical codexes for elements (plus "storm" and "cloud", just to muddy the waters) which seems to work together to indicate that giants, as a whole, come from something else entirely than just "ups, it happened!"
Re: neanderthals/humans - yes, they don't go together in real world formats, but they do make a distinct sense in a game world evolutionary style (especially since the game wasn't created/written by super up-to-date biologists). Really, in Golarion, "neanderthal" means something different than in our world. Otherwise, whenever we talk about 'dwarves' (or, I suppose, more accurately 'dwarfs'?), we'd be talking about humans with particular genetic sequencing that's out-of-the-norm, resulting in stunted physical growth. That's not what we mean at all, however. ()
DRAGONS: dragons are pretty clearly elemental creatures of some kind or another. They're substantially beyond just magical beasts. They're more like [<1.5x(magical beast + outsider {elemental})/2>+<barbarian HD>]. That said, I'd guess that they're more likely related to magical beasts as a whole (though certainly not most, in specific) than most anything else (as evidenced by the behir).
Also, have we determined that elves are fey, at all?
On-topic - I'm tempted to start a blog written in-character doing write-ups on species using a variation on the current style of scientific write-ups.
I'm already started on a very similar project. Though it's focused more on the art and depictions of anatomy than writing since I'm not a writer whatsoever. Would you be interested in seeing the beginnings of it? It'd be nice to have a skilled writer to collab with =)
(Sorry, I forgot to respond to this point before)
The thing is, as humans, that sort of look appears natural. The human eye can pick out discrepancies in the human form more than any other creature's form so it doesn't even take much to make it look unnatural to us. Although I like the idea of a differing functionality it still goes against the core substance of the original description for Cthulhu. And then that begs the question, if that pectoralis major-looking thing DOESN'T aid in flexion/extension of the humerus then what does? Assuming these movements aren't purely by magical, which would be a copout. I wan't to see completely different anatomical joints suggesting an entirely inhuman gait.
Oh, I totally understand, and even agree to a point. That's why I go the extra mile to make it seem creepy in my stuff, rather than just a copout. Of course, there's nothing about the Old Ones that would really be non-magical (or equivalent), I'd tend to guess. :)
Also, Nickolas Russel and Chuck Wright - it might be really cool if you guys created a periodical that explored these issues you published together. That might garner some nifty attention to the idea.
(Sorry, I forgot to respond to this point before)
The thing is, as humans, that sort of look appears natural. The human eye can pick out discrepancies in the human form more than any other creature's form so it doesn't even take much to make it look unnatural to us. Although I like the idea of a differing functionality it still goes against the core substance of the original description for Cthulhu. And then that begs the question, if that pectoralis major-looking thing DOESN'T aid in flexion/extension of the humerus then what does? Assuming these movements aren't purely by magical, which would be a copout. I wan't to see completely different anatomical joints suggesting an entirely inhuman gait.Oh, I totally understand, and even agree to a point. That's why I go the extra mile to make it seem creepy in my stuff, rather than just a copout. Of course, there's nothing about the Old Ones that would really be non-magical (or equivalent), I'd tend to guess. :)
Also, Nickolas Russel and Chuck Wright - it might be really cool if you guys created a periodical that explored these issues you published together. That might garner some nifty attention to the idea.
Very true. I should've clarified what I really meant was describing something as magic to avoid actual explanation. Of course you can describe something as magic and still explain how the magic works.
On-topic - I'm tempted to start a blog written in-character doing write-ups on species using a variation on the current style of scientific write-ups.I'm already started on a very similar project. Though it's focused more on the art and depictions of anatomy than writing since I'm not a writer whatsoever. Would you be interested in seeing the beginnings of it? It'd be nice to have a skilled writer to collab with =)
I sure would, but to be honest, I'm only a semi-skilled writer. <grin>
my email is magnir (at) gmail (dot) com
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So who else on this thread mourns the death of the "Ecology" articles from Dragon magazine?
Thanks, Nickolas! I don't have that book, so yeah.
I'd say that implies it pretty heavily, yes. So... basically goblins were created... on accident... and by murder. That explains so much.
Wait, wait, what about Gnolls, Kobolds, Lizardfolk, and Troglodytes? They're all humanoids and I remember reading somewhere in Golarion works that Lizardfolk and Troglodytes were two of the oldest humanoids races on Golarion and had among the earliest civilizations before they collapsed.
And aren't giants a subtype of humanoids these days, like (Human, Elf, Goblin, & Orc?) They can be affected by Charm Person these days, I hear.
Heh, well, I did mean primate-esque hominids, rather than game-term humanoids, however I thought that Gnolls were created by Lamashtu, Kobolds were specifically by-products of dragons, and honestly... I really don't know about lizardfolk (they might be a pre-corrupt troglodyte or something).
As far a giants, what tempts me away from considering them in the first place is the same reason I was hesitant to put goblins in: they have a sub-type unique to themselves. To further suggest other in their origin, is the fact that you have elemental giants, akin to the extraplanar maelstrom and magical codexes for elements (plus "storm" and "cloud", just to muddy the waters) which seems to work together to indicate that giants, as a whole, come from something else entirely than just "ups, it happened!"
Re: neanderthals/humans - yes, they don't go together in real world formats, but they do make a distinct sense in a game world evolutionary style (especially since the game wasn't created/written by super up-to-date biologists). Really, in Golarion, "neanderthal" means something different than in our world. Otherwise, whenever we talk about 'dwarves' (or, I suppose, more accurately 'dwarfs'?), we'd be talking about humans with particular genetic sequencing that's out-of-the-norm, resulting in stunted...
I get all tweaked when terms are used incorrectly <grin> and honestly, the mythic dwarf concept may or may not have predated folks with a specific form of achondroplasia, it's mixed up in our language and culture as well as in fanatasy.
I have nice little theories that I've been working on concerning elves, humans, orcs (and why humans can interbreed with both) that I've been kicking around for some time.
It involves elves being the product of a fae race interbreeding with humans to create a servant race. Orcs are the offspring that didn't carry the preferred traits and were exterminated... mostly.
I see dragons as arcane magic personified and exemplars of paradigms.
So who else on this thread mourns the death of the "Ecology" articles from Dragon magazine?
Eeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyyyup.
Heh, well, I did mean primate-esque hominids, rather than game-term humanoids, however I thought that Gnolls were created by Lamashtu, Kobolds were specifically by-products of dragons, and honestly... I really don't know about lizardfolk (they might be a pre-corrupt troglodyte or something).
Like I said, my bad. I read humanoid when I should have read hominid.
If I'd been reading with enough comprehension, I would have noticed you meant primate-based, not just humanoid and intelligent. :)
As for giants, goblins, and subtypes... every humanoid has a subtype. Grant you, most humanoids are the only example of their subtype... (though neanderthals probably have the human subtype,) but still, one could argue they're (goblins and giants) simply more diverse than the others. Speaking of giants their subtype is a little haphazard around the edges. Not quite a catchall, but trolls don't seem to have much to do with ogres, and ogres at best have to do with hill giants, who don't themselves come across as particularly elemental.
I honestly wonder what trolls have (biologically) to do with any of the other giants, if anything. They seem to have a strong tie to the first world in some breeds, and there are a /lot/ of breeds.
Incidentally, if we're considering primate hominids, do Charuka (the chimp-folk of Garund,) fit into the equation, or are we sticking with just humanoid races? Just as incidentally, Sasquatch exist in Golarion! :)
Hey, no problem! I wasn't trying to pile on you or anything! Just trying to clarify! :)
I had thought Charau-Ka were made by the demon-lord Aznger-whatever? I admit I could be wrong about that, but that was my impression. If created on Golarion that would make them "native", but not necessarily "natural".
What you say is true reference individual subtypes... sort of.
Type and subtype indicates one (or more) of several different things: general traits and forms (ala the "humanoid" or "water"), general tendencies (ala "magical beasts" or "aberration") or general shared heritage or base (ala "goblinoid" or "human").
From what I understand; if we get too granular about it; we could; in fact; specify the difference between a goblinoid, goblin, or goblinoid, hobgoblin; though there'd be little point in doing so. I admit that could be an incorrect understanding, however!
The real question is whether giants, as a subtype, are a set of related creatures (like goblinoids), or a set of less related creatures that have some similar traits (possibly like reptilian-subtype humanoids... although, they, too, might be related!). I've yet to come across (excepting robots, and even then, in a round about way...) a subtype that does not, in some way, delineate either common ancestry (goblinoids), or common origin (water subtype), while it seems types usually group them into broad categories based on general physical appearances/functions, which leads me to my conclusion that giants come from a singular breed-stock, somewhere in the past.
Referencing the question of elemental ties to a singular over-arching race, that is supported by the idea of comparing genies to giants. While there are clearly primary elemental creatures of superior power (efreeti/firegiants, djinni/cloud giants, marids/storm giants, or shaitan/stone giants) you have your "lesser" creatures composed of all four elements at the same time (hill giant/janni). The main thing of interest about giants (including trolls) is the broad diversification of elemental intersections. I mean, there were 3.5 "cold genies" (I've forgotten what they're called now), and those map pretty well to frost giants, but giant DNA (or whatever) seems inherently unstable, as it's also created the athach, cyclops, ettin, ogre, and troll (and the troll "elemental varieties") versions, and they all seem to be able to interbreed, not to mention the taiga and wood giants (and the rune giants magically created from those two). And the various cyclops all basically admit to being of "giant kind" (as in related to other versions), as do the other elemental giants, from what I understand.
The troll is a special case, however. It may very well have actually kind of "bred into" being a giant from being originally plant creatures, which makes a kind of sense, seeing how they seem so different in some ways compared to other giants. They could even be of ogre stock in the distant past plus some kind of plant-creature hybrid that eventually mutated into trolls as we know them.
The main source of contention that would withhold this theory from being fully embraced, as far as I am concerned, is actually the ogres themselves - they are, by far, the most "humanoid" of the giants, without any of the strange magical-ness (or whatever) the other giants have. Further, it's pretty clear what strange problems they have come from their own faults as inbreeding (and thus mutant) psychopaths as opposed to any outside mystical influence.
ANYWAY, all that said, I can easily see them not related either. It's just from what I've observed, that's the conclusion I've come to. (Also related: they mesh somewhat with their Greco-Roman Titan-esque/Norse Giant mythical roots that way, and the latter certainly has a place for fire/ice giants that makes the two breeds make sense, even as the former indicates the viability of one, core race with many different results).
Also, Sasquatch actually have their own subtype!
EDIT: to fix the marids/storm giants link/example/thing. Whoooooooops.
As an aside - if there are ever any books exploring the origins of fantastical creatures through a "scientific" approach... I'm totally spending my money on it. :DEver seen Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials?
Been a proud owner of a copy for 23 years. ;)