I'm trying to build a ranged sneak-attack user, and I've got a question on ambiguous language.
The gang-up feat says you are considered to be flanking an opponent if two of your allies threaten it, period. So does that mean with gang-up you'd be considered flanking an opponent even if you have a ranged weapon?
I ask because I'm trying to build a ranged sneak-attack user. I think that's what it means and if I'm right then life is awesome, if not then I need to invest in the expensive snap-shot tree so I can threaten squares with a bow (then without a doubt gang-up will work, but I'd be limited to 15 feet and would use up a lot of feats in the process.)
The gang-up feat says you are considered to be flanking an opponent if two of your allies threaten it, period. So does that mean with gang-up you'd be considered flanking an opponent even if you have a ranged weapon?
Technically, yes. You would have flanking.
However, flanking only applies to melee attacks, so you could not use it to get sneak attack with your ranged weapon unless other circumstances permit.
FAQ on Gang Up and ranged weapons
Note that even if you threaten squares with your bow, it's still a ranged attack to shoot, so you can take AoOs with it, but will not benefit from flanking unless you're stabbing the guy with an arrow or clubbing him with your bow.
So is there an effective way to get sneak attacks with range other than sniping from stealth and greater invisibility spells?
Or is the only real way to do it to take 3 archer levels for distant feint, the greater feint feat and the moonlight stalker feat line so you can feint if you have concealment and still make a full-attack? I'm hoping for a way to use a full-attack with sneak attack, not just to hide and make one shot a round from stealth.
So is there an effective way to get sneak attacks with range other than sniping from stealth and greater invisibility spells?
No, there really has never been an effective way to Sneak Attack with range--even Greater Invisibility eventually has too many counters to be effective.
There are no easy methods of getting ranged sneak attack reliably without relying on gear. Just grabbing moonlight stalker feint and greater feint will cost you 6 or so feats, before you even can attempt to do anything about archery feats.
So is there an effective way to get sneak attacks with range other than sniping from stealth and greater invisibility spells?
Or is the only real way to do it to take 3 archer levels for distant feint, the greater feint feat and the moonlight stalker feat line so you can feint if you have concealment and still make a full-attack? I'm hoping for a way to use a full-attack with sneak attack, not just to hide and make one shot a round from stealth.
It's way easier to make opponents shaken than flat-footed.
Use Dazzling Display First round, and sneak attack for the remainder of combat. Better yet, get the Fighter to Dazzling Display.
Or get the Party Bard to Dazzling Display while they do their bard thing
Awesome, I like your idea. Read the thread, good thoughts.
Have you released an official version?
Not yet, but I am 95% sure that'll be the final version. The only changes I foresee are cleaning up the language.
Ok, I had missed shatter defenses. Thank you all so much! That just finally gave me a way to make my rogue characters valid without having to re-write anything!
But yeah, I'll still probably incorporate some changes into the rogue's design too.
Actually Cheapy, I was thinking about it and your rogue alteration also makes rogues the best sneak attackers again.
If you're another class with sneak attack you can still take feint feats or shatter defenses to make each attack a sneak attack, but a rogue can now do it just by class features: Go stealth for the first attack to drop a bleeding sneak attack (or a sickening or intimidate if you're a thug or rake,) then keep dropping more effects onto your sneak attacks to make sure the target's always susceptible.
The only fear I have is that there's only one actual sneak attack, bleeding, that would inflict a condition that works. Along with the archetype you're making I feel there needs to be more sneak attacks that drop conditions, otherwise rogue builds will start being nothing but scout, thug and rake archetypes, with bleeding sneak attacks by everyone else.
Yep! With the Snapshot rogue talent, you can all but ensure sneak attack on your first attack of the surprise round. Put Bleed on it and you're good. In some sense, it's nice if your teammates inflict conditions as well. But between tanglefoot bags, bleeding attack, intimidation, invisibility, flanking, Dirty Trick combat maneuver, etc, you'll be getting the extra damage far more often than just plain sneak attack.
The archetypes you listed are certainly the best ways to take advantage of it...but they're already the main archetypes for rogues wanting to focus on damage, thanks to Shatter Defenses. Well, those and Knife Master. FWIW, the archetype it's technically for will be focusing on Dirty Tricks.
The goal of it was to make it so rogues don't have to rely on the buddy system for consistent Sneak Attack and so ranged rogues could finally work better than one attack (or lots of feats). They certainly benefit a lot more if others apply conditions (such as a barbarian raging and scaring his enemies, a druid with entangle, a wizard, a bard with Dirge of Doom, etc).
Ha, now we finally have a class that will rely on alchemy items. Alchemists get much better stuff and most other people I know stop using tanglefoot bags after level 7. A rogue is now officially the item-user of the party.
And by the way, my vote is you get +2 damage with your first level of a sneak attack class, then add 1 for each other sneak attack level you gain. That way you can still say divide by 2 and round down to determine your sneak attack 'dice,' plus it makes every level important, like with a cavalier's challenge and a paladin's smite.
Well by level 7, you have more options of how to get the conditions to stick :)
Oh, sorry, one more question. How would this affect the Knife master archetype and the powerful sneak and deadly sneak talents?
For the Knife Master, the simplest method is to add or subtract one based on the weapon. d8 is only an average of 1 point of damage more than d6, and d4 is one less. So you'll keep the same effect of the Knife Master.
I'm not sure about Powerful Sneak and Deadly Sneak. I do know that they are actually very, very bad for damage and that you are almost always better off not using it. I'll need to think about those. Now wouldn't they be interesting if they were other methods of opening up sneak attack...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks, it's been nice to talk to someone who addresses things I care about, and I like your design work.
Now that I'm done fanboy-ing, I'll go write up some adventures.
Oh, just thought of something: if you went the d4s route instead of +2s, then powerful sneak and deadly sneak can stay unchanged and actually become good talents. Fix two problems with one design change.