Sorcerer level 1, arcane bloodline, monkey familiar
If I have a monkey as a familiar, can he use my ranks in use magic device to use a wand of cure light wounds at his own volition? I figure he will only be able to use my skill rank, and not any extra bonuses I have. Also, he'll likely be doing so at a penalty to charisma. So I see it's not a great option, but an extra pair of hands to bring party members back from the brink of death seems like something worth considering.
Can I use my handle animal skill to improve its use an emergency medic? I'm not sure to what extent I can use the empathetic link with the monkey to get him to help out on the field. I've had the impression that my familiar is basically a little version of me, and I should use him accordingly (which is why there's such a penalty for putting your familiar in harms way--it's akin to putting yourself in harms way).
Here's some reference text I looked up in the process.
"Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of [use magic device] allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge."
"To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole"
Strangely the anthropomorphic Anamal spell may actualy be of use here allowing your monkey to speak for 1 hour per level, just dont expect him to climb aneything.
The anthropomorphic Anamal spell only works on anamals not maghical beasts so it wont work on a familiar just a trained monkey.
so tahts a maby on the caphucin death beam for you.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Monkey is not a 'language'.
The anthropomorphic animal idea is kind of a curious thought but it doesn't grant any skill points to take UMD with or any class levels so it's sort of stuck also. Most animals also lack the hit points to survive in all but the lowest levels of combat.
Heh... also really low will saves mean your wand monkey might be turned on you fairly easily.
Assume no, but ask your GM.
Technically, I think if they constantly Activate Blindly it could work.
Activate Blindly: Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you're not and even if you don't know it. You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate.The quoted portions of activate blindly call this into question. It seems to come down to whether you consider a monkey as capable of speech or not. He doesn't need to be able to say anything in particular, just speak at all. A raven or thrush could DEFINITELY use a wand, per these rules. The only remaining question is whether or not a crow's foot
passes for a hand, for non-humanoid creatures
or not.
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"Hey, Whats the command word on this druids wand? I want to wake him up"
"Neigh"
"What.. is he in the senate or something?"
"No, his animal companion is a horse"
I dunno about monkey speech, but familiars do have a language, a secret one that they share with their masters. Just use a command word from that. That way, you both can use the wand.
I dunno about monkey speech, but familiars do have a language, a secret one that they share with their masters. Just use a command word from that. That way, you both can use the wand.
As mentioned in my quoted text from the use magic device skill upthread, you never need to say the command word, as long as you're willing to take the harder check and activate it blindly. Though now that I think about it you'll probably also need to make the check to use a wand immediately beforehand, because along with being able to flub the activation word you need to fake having the spell on the monkey's class list.
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Just a thought, why not pick a Raven familiar that can speak one language and thus you wouldn't need to find a way for the monkey to speak. Plus it'd be able to fly about out of danger until needed to swoop in and heal someone. Plus they only have a -2 Cha mod, as opposed to the monkey's -3.
[nitpick]Wands are spell trigger activated, not by command word. Spell trigger does state that a single word is needed to be spoken, but that's not the same thing as a command word item.[/nitpick]
Perhaps I'm being too literal in interpreting "activation word" as different enough from "command word" to qualify for this sort of thing, CrackedOzy. But i'd have to say that since command word is a type of activation method, and use magic device should be able to use command word based items, "activation word" definitely at least includes command word and may or may not include the single spoken word for spell trigger items.
So it is at least open to interpretation.
Josh Hodges: So if I know the command word/activation word you won't make me roll the UMD check?
Abraham spalding: No. Sorry, apparently what I said lacked any sort of clarity? I'm thinking you'd need two UMD checks, not zero. One to fake having the spell on your monkey's spell list, as per the use wand/scroll/staff portion of the UMD skill and one to substitute other speech for the word necessary as part of the spell trigger activation method, as per the activate blindly portion of the UMD skill.
I think you're taking the Activate Blindly entry too, uh, RAWy (is that a word?).
The entry heavily implies that you're guessing until you get the activation trigger correct, not that you're bypassing the actual correct trigger.
I believe the clear RAI is that you're waving the thing around babbling common syllable combinations like crazy until you happen to get the thing right. That's why you get a bonus to repeated attempts--you may not know if it was waving your arm counterclockwise or which particular set of gibberish you were spewing, but you have a good idea of what you were doing last time you got it to work.
So, since Wands require a word be spoken to trigger, I don't believe one can activate it, even blindly, unless they are capable of speaking that word.
And further, I'm pretty sure the creator of the wand picks the word--so unless you are making your own wands, you don't get to pull clever tricks like setting your word to horse sounds or your special familiar language.
Just wait until level 7 like everyone else to get an improved familiar to UMD for you.
Or hell, take a Faerie Dragon. They are already Sorcerers, so they don't need UMD at all unless they're using non-Sorcerer/Wizard wands.
I think Activate blindly kind of subsumes the other skill check.
I mean I would agree if this was a scroll for example where you must have both the stat and the spell and the caster level, but once you go for activate blindly it seems like you've given up on doing it 'right' at all.
Abraham: yep, you've given up on doing it right, but you still don't have the magic to make it work even if it's wrong. It NEEDS that to do anything.
Mplindustries: I'd consider what you're saying as a possibility except for the fact that you can do it so QUICKLY- namely as part of the same 6 seconds it would normally take you to use it, and that it specifically says you can totally fail to even say the word and just have to do something vaguely similar. A monkey with 6 intelligence can TRY to say enchilada, for example. They'll fail miserably, but it's still vocalizing and I'd call that an equivalent action.
I was just using the quotes earlier to get us on firm rules ground since this is a rules question in the Rules Questions subforum- referencing the rules in question directly seems like the way to go ;)
Again I don't think you are right on that Josh, and I don't think the rules support your position. If you activate it blindly successfully then you have succeeded at activating it.
The impression I got was that activate blindly does not bypass the need for a command/ completion word. For example you could never use UMD to activate a wand/ staff blindly in a silenced area.
Activate Blindly: Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you're not and even if you don't know it. You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate. You get a +2 bonus on your Use Magic Device check if you've activated the item in question at least once before. If you fail by 9 or less, you can't activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but doesn't do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally risk when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.
Then what in the heck does it do? Cause that's explicitly what it states it does!
Well I would suggest that scrolls are specifically different since they are spell completion items -- indeed I would argue the same for randomly activating wands too since wands have a specific activation thing going on that doesn't even mention speaking:
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for non-humanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.
Personally I think the whole of the UMD rules is currently a mess than needs some straightening out.
I mean you know the command word of a wand (which wands apparently don't have) and you still can't use it because you don't have the spell knowledge?
Well which is it that operates the wand? The command word or the spell knowledge?
In either case it doesn't matter because you don't have to do anything else but UMD to activate a wand if its not on your spell list.
IF it is on your spell list you can simply use it with no check.
Taken as a whole it becomes so much rubbish in my opinion.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Everyone knows you have to swish and flick just so in order to use a wand properly.
It seems like if you read the rules literally you can pull off a whole lot of cheese just by nailing the activate blindly DC (at +2 on your check after the first time) every time.
For what it's worth, wands are a subset of "Spell Trigger" items which explicitly call out "a single word that must be spoken":
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
I suppose you could argue that wands activation text overrides that but... *shrug*
My major point (which I made in the other thread just like this one not but a few hours ago is how absolutely nonsensical the whole situation is.
Personally I think the whole of the UMD rules is currently a mess than needs some straightening out.
I mean you know the command word of a wand (which wands apparently don't have) and you still can't use it because you don't have the spell knowledge?
Well which is it that operates the wand? The command word or the spell knowledge?
Both are required.
Wands use the spell trigger activation method
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken.
The impression I got was that activate blindly does not bypass the need for a command/ completion word. For example you could never use UMD to activate a wand/ staff blindly in a silenced area.Then what in the heck does it do? Cause that's explicitly what it states it does!
No, it doesn't. It's far from explicit. It simply says "you do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check", but it doesn't specify what an equivalent activity is.
From the name of the skill, it sounds to me the intent of Activate Blindly is to allow you to use an item you haven't identified. As such, one would Blindly Activate a wand by inventing a command word to replace an unknown command word, hoping the wand understands your intent.
This would allow the monkey to screech to satisfy the command word requirement for activating a wand. (I might even give a small bonus if the monkey actually knows the word but just can't pronounce it.) Of course, it still needs to pass the spellcasting knowledge requirement with a second UMD check (DC 20).
I can see why you think the skill could also be used to circumvent Silence and the like. The text does seem to allow this, although I don't believe that's the intended use.
Why not just take "Improved Familiar" and get it done with.
I mean you know the command word of a wand (which wands apparently don't have) and you still can't use it because you don't have the spell knowledge?
Yes. The wand releases the energy of the spell, holding onto it and controlling it is up to you.
What ravens totally lack are the means to carry and point a wand. Raptors they are not.
Ravens can manipulate objects with their feet and beaks. I don't think they could adjust a wand mid-flight, but they could certainly set one up in their feet while stationary. Since Familiars have human intelligence, I'm confident they could then orient their bodies in flight in such a way that the wand is pointing at someone.
Oh, and also, I believe Thrush familiars can also speak and give a better skill bonus than Ravens (Diplomacy vs. Appraise). And though they are nowhere near as awesome and badass looking, Thrushes are totally adorable, so they have that going for them.
Of course, I was told in another thread that the PFS rule is that only Improved Familiars can use Wands, so that's at least a semi-official clarification, if it is true.
What ravens totally lack are the means to carry and point a wand. Raptors they are not.
Just make the wand smaller for them (or have it made that way)
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Why not just take "Improved Familiar" and get it done with.
Because it's not necessary. Wait till 5th level and the Monkey automatically gets the ability to speak.
UMD for Wands doesn't require that you speak in a specific language just that you can speak a single word in any language that is "equivalent" to the activation word.
Now whether you need to succeed on 1 or 2 checks to actually use that wand is another question.
(one success to Activate Blindly and another success to "use the Wand", an argument can be made for both)
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All familiars can speak.
Speak with Master (Ex): If the master is 5th level or higher, a familiar and the master can communicate verbally as if they were using a common language. Other creatures do not understand the communication without magical help.
Speak with Animals of Its Kind (Ex): If the master is 7th level or higher, a familiar can communicate with animals of approximately the same kind as itself (including dire varieties): bats with bats, cats with felines, hawks and owls and ravens with birds, lizards and snakes with reptiles, monkeys with other simians, rats with rodents, toads with amphibians, and weasels with ermines and minks. Such communication is limited by the Intelligence of the conversing creatures.
no where does it state that the word spoken to activate a wand must be in common or any other language.
no where does it state that the word spoken to activate a wand must be in common or any other language.
The fact that its a word, not just any sound, indicates that it is in some form of language, but i agree it need not be common. I think an augmented Int velociraptor companion might be able to crank out a word of draconic or two for example.
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The fact that its a word, not just any sound, indicates that it is in some form of language, but i agree it need not be common. I think an augmented Int velociraptor companion might be able to crank out a word of draconic or two for example.no where does it state that the word spoken to activate a wand must be in common or any other language.
but a 5th level plus monkey familiar can speak with his master as if they both share a common language. This one may be made up of grunts, hoots, and howls (or how ever you want to describe monkey sounds), but it is a verbal language that at least one person understands. It is just not a named language in the Core book, and has a total number of speakers as "2" (the monkey and the caster).
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Actually, that's not true. From the quote you posted:
"as if they were using a common language"
There is no common language, they are just able to understand whatever gibberish the other babbles. The 'communicate with animals of it's own kind' ability is also not a language.
So if a wand is created by, say, a seugathi or a tengu or something, and it uses a command word that is unpronouncable to humans, would you rule that no human could use the wand?
Actually, that's not true. From the quote you posted:
"as if they were using a common language"There is no common language, they are just able to understand whatever gibberish the other babbles. The 'communicate with animals of it's own kind' ability is also not a language.
I find this part more interesting.
Other creatures do not understand the communication without magical help.
That implies that a spell like tongues or comprehend languages would allow a third party to understand the communication between a master and a familiar in their special tongue.
Comprehend Languages
You can understand the spoken words of creatures or read otherwise incomprehensible written messages. The ability to read does not necessarily impart insight into the material, merely its literal meaning. The spell enables you to understand or read an unknown language, not speak or write it.
The fact that comprehend languages would allow you to understand this language implies that is it actually a language.
The important thing to remember is, this is a magical beast monkey, with an intelligence, not ordinary screaming poo flinger monkey. Magical monkey, using a magical wand.
...who flings magic poo.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I find this part more interesting.Actually, that's not true. From the quote you posted:
"as if they were using a common language"There is no common language, they are just able to understand whatever gibberish the other babbles. The 'communicate with animals of it's own kind' ability is also not a language.
You say this as if you had actually read the rules.
It's funny how people can alter the meaning of a phrase based on the way they want to read the rules but when taken in another context you understand exactly what that phrase means.
If there were some secret language why beat around the bush, just say "They share a secret language". It's simpler and everyone already knows how to treat a language. The only reason to create something that acts as if it were language is if it actually isn't one. They wouldn't even have to mention magical assistance because all that is inherent in an actual language.
and ∅