I've always been a little sketchy on the "activate blindly" option of Use Magic Device and which actions, if any, a character *must* perform to activate a magic item.
You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate.
Does that mean that, when attempting to activate blindly, a character can freely choose to babble gibberish or wave the item around or shake it wildly; whichever is most convenient regardless of the item's nature? That is to say, can a character attempt to blindly activate a scroll or wand merely by waving them around?
A follow up question: since constructs are created in the same way as magic items (with item creation feats, raw materials and spells) can a character attempt to command them via the Use Magic Device skill?
Anybody?
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Activate blindly is basically saying "You don't know what triggers this, so you do various stupid-looking crap until you get it." You might only one of those things, or you might do all three things.
In other words, to be able to reliably attempt this, you must allow yourself to do all three things because otherwise you are likely to miss part of the trigger.
And by RAW, no, you cannot control a construct via UMD because it's not something you can "activate" in any fashion (generally, there might be exceptions and that'd be a cool thing to toss in, but there's no rule for it).
TL;DR - It's DM-fudging territory. Make them do what seems appropriate for the item.
I've always been a little sketchy on the "activate blindly" option of Use Magic Device and which actions, if any, a character *must* perform to activate a magic item.
They must do something that they believe might activate it.
Does that mean that, when attempting to activate blindly, a character can freely choose to babble gibberish or wave the item around or shake it wildly; whichever is most convenient regardless of the item's nature?
No, it means you have to do what you think might activate it.
That is to say, can a character attempt to blindly activate a scroll or wand merely by waving them around?
No, scrolls and wands have specific entries on how to use them with UMD. This is strictly for other items, like a Flaming Sword you don't know the command word for, for example.
A follow up question: since constructs are created in the same way as magic items (with item creation feats, raw materials and spells) can a character attempt to command them via the Use Magic Device skill?
No, commanding the golem is not a function of the golem, so you can't fake anything to activate it.
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I think of activating a scroll as being a bit like the scenes from television and movies where someone tries to puzzle out the words on the page.I've always been a little sketchy on the "activate blindly" option of Use Magic Device and which actions, if any, a character *must* perform to activate a magic item.
You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate.Does that mean that, when attempting to activate blindly, a character can freely choose to babble gibberish or wave the item around or shake it wildly; whichever is most convenient regardless of the item's nature? That is to say, can a character attempt to blindly activate a scroll or wand merely by waving them around?
A follow up question: since constructs are created in the same way as magic items (with item creation feats, raw materials and spells) can a character attempt to command them via the Use Magic Device skill?
The difference here is you have to "trick" the scroll. No I wouldn't let someone just wave the scroll around to activate it. But getting close enough to fake it is part of using the skill successfully. Doing it blindly means you won't know what you are casting until it's cast.
As for golems...They're made in a similar fashion but...Their not quite magic devices they're constructs. If my PCs encountered a dormant construct I might let them reactivate it and control it in a limited fashion but not so much with active ones.
I've always been a little sketchy on the "activate blindly" option of Use Magic Device and which actions, if any, a character *must* perform to activate a magic item.They must do something that they believe might activate it.
So, if a character believed that a wand could be activated by waiving it around (which seems plausible) he could then do so?
No, scrolls and wands have specific entries on how to use them with UMD. This is strictly for other items, like a Flaming Sword you don't know the command word for, for example.
I don't see anything is the "activate blindly" writeup which limits the sorts of items with which it can be used. Clarify?
Doing it blindly means you won't know what you are casting until it's cast.
Although possible, I don't see that one couldn't "activate blindly" even if they were aware of a scroll's contents. Clarify?
The funny thing is it doesn't matter if you know the command word or not -- if the spell is not on your list its a UMD check to use regardless of your fluent use of the command word (or spell trigger word).
It's like asking "How" the rogue checks for traps in order to try and justify his 40 on the check not finding the trap with a DC of 27. It doesn't really matter how he describes it, he rolls perception he finds the trap, he's trained to do that regardless of if the player is.
It doesn't matter what you suggest the character is doing to activate the item blindly you roll the dice and if you make the check you use the item as the character figures it out.
In fact I'm willing to bet that if you happened to guess the exact right way of acting the wand in your description of how you go about doing so but flub the roll the GM isn't going to simply say, "Well since you happened to guess the right actions you activate the wand even though your skill check failed to do so."
So, if a character believed that a wand could be activated by waiving it around (which seems plausible) he could then do so?
By RAW? Yes.
By the obvious RAI? No, the implication of activate blindly is that you are blindly trying common activation triggers out until you get the correct one. Succeeding on an "Activate Blindly" roll implies that you successfully guessed the correct thing, not that you bypassed the actual trigger.
For example, if the Flaming Sword requires you to say a specific nonsense word, succeeding on activating blindly implies that in your random mutterings, you managed to choke out the proper syllables. You get a +2 to do it again because, although you don't know exactly what syllables pulled it off, you have a vague idea of what you were saying/doing last time when it worked.
The way you're asking these questions makes me think you have a specific situation in mind and you're looking for a general rule one can manipulate, rather than giving us the exact situation and specifics. A wild guess: are you, or is a player of yours, trying to use Activate Blindly to turn on a magic item that requires a command word without speaking any words so turning it on is more Stealthy?
I don't see anything is the "activate blindly" writeup which limits the sorts of items with which it can be used. Clarify?
There are already entries for using a scroll, so you use those rules instead. Additionally, there is an implication by having separate entries that you never activate a Scroll. Everyone is well aware you activate a Scroll by reading it. UMD then, can't "blindly" activate a scroll because it's activated by reading. Instead, UMD lets you read it.
A wand, well, I was mistaken. A Wand is a spell-trigger item, and it requires a Command Word be spoken. If you know the Command word, you can use the Use Wand entry to fool it. If you don't, then you have to activate blindly, guessing the word until you get it correct.
A wand, well, I was mistaken. A Wand is a spell-trigger item, and it requires a Command Word be spoken. If you know the Command word, you can use the Use Wand entry to fool it. If you don't, then you have to activate blindly, guessing the word until you get it correct.
This part isn't correct. Knowing the word or not has nothing to do with it. Activating a wand is a DC 20 check if the spell isn't on your spell list.
If it is on your spell list suddenly you can activate without ever knowing the command word.
The whole set up is kind of ridiculous really.
A wand, well, I was mistaken. A Wand is a spell-trigger item, and it requires a Command Word be spoken. If you know the Command word, you can use the Use Wand entry to fool it. If you don't, then you have to activate blindly, guessing the word until you get it correct.This part isn't correct. Knowing the word or not has nothing to do with it. Activating a wand is a DC 20 check if the spell isn't on your spell list.
If it is on your spell list suddenly you can activate without ever knowing the command word.
The whole set up is kind of ridiculous really.
"Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken."
That sure seems to imply that the word is necessary.
Alright look at this:
YOU create a wand. You make up a command word that no one else could possibly know -- because it's a made up word that you specifically made up for this purpose. You don't write it on the wand because you aren't an idiot and don't want everyone knowing how to work it. You do however tell your spouse what the word is even though your spouse is a fighter and doesn't have a spell list.
Even though your spouse knows the word your spouse can't activate the wand without a UMD check.
Now lets say something horrible happens and you lose the wand. Some time later some else finds it and identifies it as a wand of (whatever) and what luck! That spell just happens to be on their spell list. They can use the wand! Without knowing your word, they can simply use it since its a wand of a spell on their spell list!
Again a rather ridiculous situation eh?
Also lets look at what the wand entry itself has to say on the subject:
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for non-humanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.
Well that's not very helpful huh? All you got to do is hold and point according to that!
Lets check the UMD entry too:
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.
Hm... no mention of needing this special word -- you simply have the item make a UMD DC 20 check and you can use it.
In fact you don't even get a bonus for knowing what the word is -- you would think that having it would make it easier to use the wand wouldn't you? But apparently not.
Except what I showed above which says otherwise.
Ok, did you guys just miss the text I quoted? It's from here.
"Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
Emphasis mine. That is the rule for Spell Trigger items in general. You need the word to activate any spell trigger item.
Specific over general mplindustries -- and the wand entry is specific for wands.
Specific over general mplindustries -- and the wand entry is specific for wands.lol try arguing this about WBL and magic item creation.
EDIT: I do agree specific trumps general.
I try not to argue about "not rules" -- as it is I admit to being pedantic on this issue. It's just an ugly area of the rules to me and one I feel should be exposed as such regularly and often.
Ok, did you guys just miss the text I quoted? It's from here.
"Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
Emphasis mine. That is the rule for Spell Trigger items in general. You need the word to activate any spell trigger item.
Also it is vague on what word is to be spoken. It doesn't say a single command word is spoken, just any old word will do.
Specific over general mplindustries -- and the wand entry is specific for wands.
There's no specific over general here. The Wand entry doesn't mention a word at all--it doesn't overturn the general, it says nothing. The wand entry details the stuff you need to do with the wand that is specific for the wand (i.e. point it generally at the area), but does nothing to change the general stuff you need to do for Spell Trigger items in general (i.e. say a word).
The specific needs to actually change the general for it to trump.
Yes I missed your post. That's what I was looking for. So if you don't know the word you must always activate blindly until you can learn it. So now how do you learn a word so you can apply the wand specifics? How many blind attempts do you need?
You don't learn it with UMD. You learn it with an Identify check using Spellcraft. You identify the magic properties of the item (it's a wand, the level of wand, the spell in the wand, the activation word).
It's fairly straight-forward. The command word is required for a spell-trigger device (wand or staff generally). Command word is easily learned by identifying the magic item. Without such word, you have to "activate blindly", DC 25. With such word, but without spell on spell, you have to "use wand", DC 20. That's a "+5 bonus" for knowing the word.
It's entirely possible, the way it's worded, that the word that has to be spoken to activate a wand is based on the spell in it, and not the creator's whim. So every fireball wand is activated with the same word, because it's a property of fireball-in-wand-form.
A more interesting question would be whether you can cast from a wand while within a silence effect. You can speak the word just fine, it's that no one can hear you. Would you have the normal 20% chance of failure for spellcasting while deaf?
Wands are not command word activated which is its own activation type.
Wands are not command word activated which is its own activation type.
It doesn't matter if it's a command word activation or not. Spell Trigger activation requires a word be spoken. There's no getting around that without something specifically saying otherwise.
ll sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area.
Using wands is not on that list. Neither is command word items, for that matter. Which goes back to the questions of: If I say "flame on", and my flaming sword can't hear me, does it still flame? And if I say "burn" to my wand of fireball, does it still launch a glowing bead?
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The way I always thought about it is, magic items WANT to be activated. Whether it is some variation on potential energy of all the stored magic or, at some base level, the magic item enjoys being 'activated'. That is why UMD is based off CHA, you're convincing the item to activate, despite the fact that you can't present the specific circumstances that were hardwired to cause the activation. You basically short circuit the item into activating by shear force of personality. In order to cause this, you may need to talk to the item or wave it around or whatever to convince it that it is 'close enough' to whatever activation was required.
No, the implication of activate blindly is that you are blindly trying common activation triggers out until you get the correct one. Succeeding on an "Activate Blindly" roll implies that you successfully guessed the correct thing, not that you bypassed the actual trigger.
I'm not sure the supposition you're describing is accurate. After all, there's really no time to try the trial and error method during the few seconds it requires to make a Use Magic Device skill check. Either you succeed on your UMD attempt or you don't. Since the probability of succeeding on a check far outweighs that of randomly stumbling across a correct procedure in a few seconds it would stand to reason that there's some other method being used.
For lack of a better explanation, I'd suppose that a character attempts to mystically trigger an item by overpowering it through sheer force of determination/personality; which is sort of what the Charisma ability represents. My ¢2.
The way you're asking these questions makes me think you have a specific situation in mind and you're looking for a general rule one can manipulate, rather than giving us the exact situation and specifics.
There is no specific situation. I'm simply trying to figure out the circumstances under which a UMD check can be attempted. Say, if a character is bound; could he attempt to blindly activate a scroll tucked into his belt merely by babbling at it? Or, as you propose, could a character activate a held wand if he were gagged or in a field of silence merely by waiving it around vigorously?
As written, the activate blindly option doesn't appear to place any limits on the sorts of items that can be activated beyond stating that "Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item". That, as long as you "perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check". I guess it boils down to how broadly "some equivalent activity" can be interpreted.
I'm also curious whether there's some benefit to choosing to activate an item blindly, while accepting a higher skill check DC and risking a possible mishap, rather than using one of the other methods even if they're available.
Bump.
Wands are not command word activated which is its own activation type.It doesn't matter if it's a command word activation or not. Spell Trigger activation requires a word be spoken. There's no getting around that without something specifically saying otherwise.
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for non-humanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.
That is the method of activating a wand. It is specifically stated as such, it doesn't specify that it needs a command word, activating word, or any other word.
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Matt's (worthless) fluff reasoning.
For a UMD check, basically it's using whatever tricks to 'convince' that potential energy to discharge. Maybe in taking the skill, the character learned how to think of the different schools. Simple mental/verbal exercises that allow him to 'think' fire like a wizard. Maybe he carries a collection of knock off holy symbols like Bennie from the Mummy to help him 'trick' the Holy avenger into thinking he's a Paladin (what would a Masterwork UMD tool be anyway?)
As to the word vs non-word bit. Like Abraham said. The general spell trigger is trumped by the specific wand activation. Yes it's nice to point that wand of fireball and say "fuego! Mas Fuego! Burn you bastards burn!" but it's not required.[
It's not trumped! Specific beats general. Not mentioning the general whatsoever does not beat general.
The wand activation stuff is something you need to do for wands--you must point it in the general direction of the target or area. Spell Trigger items in general require a word, and a wand is a spell trigger item.
The general rule is that the wand requires a word be spoken. There is no specific rule that says the word is not needed.
Thus, to use a wand, you must point it and say a word.
When specifically talking about wands that fall in the general rules of spell trigger items there is no mention of needing a spoken word in the specific section that is wand activation.
You also cannot point something that has been swallowed but that's in the wand activation rules.
EDIT: We all assume there is some word spoken or some such or how else do you know when a charge is being used. Especially when swallowed.
"Swallowed whole" refers to being in a creature's stomach, not to the wand being in yours. Given you can move enough to cut yourself out, it's reasonable to assume you can move enough to point a wand.