Outsider weapon proficiencies.
I have to ask, because I only recently was brought into the loop about the developers chiming in on the boards.
And I've not seen any arguments citing page 297 of the Bestiary, or the difference between creature type Traits and racial Traits.
Whether it was an innocent oversight, a ret-con, or a holdover from a previous playtest version, the rules in multiple places support creatures/players with the Outsider type as being proficient with simple and martial weapons. This is coming from a DM perspective, not a player perspective.
I finally found the bit of text that made me think that the "Outsiders without racial HD do not get weapon proficiencies" is a more recent trend in thought from the original design intent.
On page 297 of the Bestiary, Section 2: Add Class Levels, last two sentences of paragraph 2 reads as follows: "If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice."
I interpret this plainly: A. simple/martial weapon proficiency is a class feature granted to Outsiders that stacks with levels in a class, and B. (inversely stated) adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice is just like adding class levels to a creature with racial Hit Dice. Either way, weapon proficiencies granted by creature type stack with class levels, unless errata changes either this passage, the text of the Outsider type, or the individual races' descriptions. I would prefer systemic change if the Devs truly feel this is a balance issue.
And most telling as to the design's original intent, is the Outsider text on page 309 of the Bestiary. Weapon/armor proficiencies are listed under Traits, not above the traits section where the rules for HD-based statistics are derived. The Traits clearly do not get negated by taking class levels, regardless of Hit Dice (or lack thereof). These creature type traits are not replaced by their racial traits. Their racial traits are in addition to their Outsider traits, just like any other Outsider's individual racial traits are in addition to their Outsider traits.
Also, as mentioned on the boards elsewhere, Humanoids have an exception written into their type, very explicitly, whereas Outsiders do not:
"Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. ... Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type." (page 308 of the Bestiary)
This came up in a PbP recruitment thread I started, and a player enlightened me to this whole other way of looking at 0HD Outsider races. They seem to be the only exemption, and an odd one at that.
Outsiders are indeed proficient with simple and martial weapons regardless of hit dice or class levels. That is RAW, but if one wishes to houserule, that's cool.
It is indeed RAW, but not RAI. Developers have specifically stated that it is not how they intended it to be and, indeed, their official stance is that outsiders without hit dice do NOT gain weapon proficiencies.
I personally think that is silly of course as, without further clarification, no one really knows where else to draw the line on what they get and don't get.
I'll see if I can find the relevant threads/posts on the matter.
EDIT: Found it. Scroll down from there to see my adamant complaints and the "official response."
I skimmed through this thread. It was one of the more comprehensive arguments, despite obvious tempers flaring, but it still did not address a few of my above points on either side of the discussion.
Without the above references, the Devs could easily say "not RAI" and one could side with them relatively easily, but the rules in multiple parts of the book indicate either gross oversight, or a more recent change to RAI. If the latter, it'd be easier to just say, "yeah, at first we thought they should get the proficiencies, as written and not made exception to, but we've since changed our minds and plan to errata it." Instead of using the "common sense" defense, which is honestly a little insulting to some of us to whom it is [i]not[/i[ common sense.
I feel like I am missing context. Is this about trying to get tieflings and aasimar those weapon proficiencies?
And possiblye Silphs, Oreads, Ifrit, etc. etc.
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All of those have entries explaining what characters using those races get. That overrides the other stuff.
[/quote=PRD]Native Subtype: This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
Race, Class, and Level: Some monsters do not possess racial Hit Dice and are instead defined by their class levels. For these monsters, their race, class, and level appear here. Unless otherwise noted, the first class listed is the class chosen by the monster as its favored class.
Native outsiders are not true outsiders so they do not get everything an outsider does.
All of those have entries explaining what characters using those races get. That overrides the other stuff.
[/quote=PRD]Native Subtype: This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
Race, Class, and Level: Some monsters do not possess racial Hit Dice and are instead defined by their class levels. For these monsters, their race, class, and level appear here. Unless otherwise noted, the first class listed is the class chosen by the monster as its favored class.
Native outsiders are not true outsiders so they do not get everything an outsider does.
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-As per the rules for adding class levels to monsters, regardless of whether they possessed racial HD or not, this is not true.
It may have been the intent, and then forgotten about, but the rules do not support it, as written.
The bit about needing to eat and sleep is just that, and has nothing to do with the other Outsider Traits. The Racial Traits listed for tieflings, aasimars, oreads, ifrits, etc., are in addition to their Outsider (native) Traits. They have Outsider Traits, modified by the (native) subtype, and then their Racial Traits come into play, just like every other creature in the game.
The context is that I am running a game with the 0HD outsider races as player options, and a number of players seem to consider them suboptimal choices. When I pointed out that they all got free simple/martial proficiency, a player pointed me to the boards, and the Devs saying that wasn't so... even though the rules clearly say it is so.
So I guess what my problem is, after all the revisions, why hasn't the text been changed in all of the above areas? Why is Humanoid spelled out explicitly, and Outsider is not? Why is adding class levels to a 0HD creature supposed to be the same as adding them to creatures with racial HD, except in the instance of 0HD native Outsiders that are allowed as PC races, according to the developers on the boards?
I guess, for closure, I'd like the RAW to reflect the RAI, as they do not, and this is a big deal for players and DMs alike, when the RAW are important.
Look if an outsider does not have HD then it does not have the proficiency, just as it does not have the skill points. Every oth HD outsider that has ever been stated follows that "rule".
Look if an outsider does not have HD then it does not have the proficiency, just as it does not have the skill points. Every oth HD outsider that has ever been stated follows that "rule".
I understand that is the currently stated intent by the developers, but the rules do not read that way, in any instance, unless the reader ignores some sections and liberally interprets others.
A simple line of text in the Outsider entry would fix that.
@LazarX. I understand that that is the argument, but it is not written like that.
All I'm asking is that they put in a line of text to clarify it in the Outsider section, like they did in the Humanoid section.