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Hello, everyone. I have been lurking and DM'ing(A first timer) a Pathfinder game recently, and I had some questions about the ability 'Spellstrike' from the Magus class and how it works with multi-touch spells. Mainly Chill-touch...
Spellstrike (Su)
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.
Chill Touch
Range touch
Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
From the reading I have done, I know my player cannot hold the charge beyond the round he casts it.
My player came to me and made the argument that in the round he casts the spell, he can make all attacks (Lets assume caster level 3) that the spell allows through his weapon. So he can target 3 different creatures with this spell and deliver all 3 touches with his weapon.
But the wording in Spellstrike suggests that using your weapon to deliver the touch attack would limit him to one swing. (in fact the wording in general seems to completly lack elaboration with what to do with multi-touch spells.)
So, how would you guys rule this?
1) Does Chill touch actually grant CasterLevel amount of touch attacks in a round?
2) If so, Does spell strike allow the player to replace all these touches with weapon strikes, OR is the player limited to one weapon strike. OR can the player make one touch with a weapon, and then the rest as normal? (Which is what I suggested to my player, he wasn't happy about that.)
Also, I get this nagging suspicion that the touches allowed by the spell are limited by his Base Attack. However, this might be an artifact from my 3.5e days. Since I cannot find this rule at the moment in the Pathfinder Core rulebook. Because Chill Touch seems to be a pretty natch spell for a magus for a level 1 slot.
I would greatly appreciate any insights on this topic from any viewpoint.
From the reading I have done, I know my player cannot hold the charge beyond the round he casts it.
Why not? He hasn't discharged the spell, so he can hold the charge until it is discharged or he casts another spell. That has nothing to do with Spellstrike.
My player came to me and made the argument that in the round he casts the spell, he can make all attacks (Lets assume caster level 3) that the spell allows through his weapon. So he can target 3 different creatures with this spell and deliver all 3 touches with his weapon.
If he can make three attacks, sure.
But the wording in Spellstrike suggests that using your weapon to deliver the touch attack would limit him to one swing.
All Spellstrike does is allow you to deliver the touch spell with your weapon instead of your touch, natural attack, or unarmed strike. That's all.
When you cast a touch spell, you get a free touch attack as part of casting. You can use Spellstrike to deliver that free attack with your weapon. Whenever you have a held charge, you can deliver that spell with a touch attack, unarmed strike (vs AC), or natural attack (vs AC). You can use Spellstrike to deliver those touches with your weapon.
1) Does Chill touch actually grant CasterLevel amount of touch attacks in a round?
No. You cast it, then you have X number of touches that deliver the effect. Each time you touch or punch or claw (or stab, with Spellstrike) it delivers the effect, until the spell is discharged.
2) If so, Does spell strike allow the player to replace all these touches with weapon strikes, OR is the player limited to one weapon strike. OR can the player make one touch with a weapon, and then the rest as normal?
Any time he could normally make an attack to deliver the spell, he can choose to make that attack with his weapon.
Also, I get this nagging suspicion that the touches allowed by the spell are limited by his Base Attack.
Actually, genuine touch attacks are limited to a standard action. (Says JJ, I'll link it later) But unarmed strikes and weapon attacks via Spellstrike are limited only by how many attacks he can normally make.
A level 2 Magus can use Spell Combat to cast Chill Touch. He gets a free touch attack as part of casting the spell. So say he takes a 5' step to get adjacent to an orc. He uses Spellstrike to deliver that free attack with his sword. He swings, and hits, and deals weapon damage, 1d6 negative energy, and 1 strength damage if the orc fails it's save. Now, since he's using Spell Combat, he makes his full normal iterative attacks with his weapon. He stabs the Orc again, delivering weapon damage, 1d6, and 1 Str (if failed save). Lets say, before this happened, someone had cast Haste. Now he makes his extra attack from haste, but because Chill Touch only granted 2 attacks, he only deals weapon damage.
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A post explaining JJ's ruling on 1 touch per round (also links to JJ's original post for context)
And The Spellstrike FAQ request thread in case you feel like adding to the FAQ requests to get the ability clarified. (44 FAQs and climbing!)
Some rules citations.
If there's a magus in your game, you'll want to very clearly understand how all touch spells work, in order to understand how the magus can use them differently.
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge
Once you've got that down, Spellstrike will make a lot more sense.
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Excellent summation there Grick!
The only clarification I'd add is a reminder that the held charge on a melee touch spell doesn't get used up if you miss with the attack. That level 2 Magus casting chill touch could hack at his foes for round after round, missing each time, and would still have his two touch attacks left (as long as he hasn't cast another spell, or otherwise discharged the held charge in the meantime). In fact, he could cast shocking grasp when he entered a dungeon and wander around (being careful not to accidentally discharge the spell via an unintentional touch) until he meets some bad guys, then charge in spellstriking with that shocking grasp on his first round.
@Grick
Thank you for your time in posting those links.
Why not? He hasn't discharged the spell, so he can hold the charge until it is discharged or he casts another spell. That has nothing to do with Spellstrike.
I got this from the rule 'Touch spells and holding the charge'. Which was in the link you posted for me.
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
So, with chill touch as an example, a Magus(or anyone) would not be allowed to hold the charge of the spell beyond the round it is cast.
But this is not really what I'm having trouble deciding on.It's really how many free weapon swings does he get for casting it.
I skimmed the other link, Grick, and it seems a Creative Director says making more than one touch a round is a nono if you don't have the Base Attack. (I don't have time to really research it atm, but I will later tonight.)
But if that's true, why have the CasterLevel touches at all in Chill Touch?...
Any other insights would be appreciated.
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Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
This bit is confusing, but it's really refering to stuff like astral proection or plane shift where you can touch a bunch of willing targets to share the effect. Spells like chill touch are different - it doesn't allow you to touch multiple targets as you cast it so much as it grants you multiple touch uses... it's a subtle (and confusing) difference, but an important one.
Hmm, Ok. I think I'm getting it now.
This is how I think I will rule it, unless somehting I missed gets pointed out.
Chill touch doesn't allow you to make multiple touches in the round you cast it. You still only get the one free touch attack as per normal. Which can be delivered through spell strike by the Magus.
If the magus gains any more attacks, whether through her BaB and Spell combat, AoO's and the like. The Magus can swing her weapon and subsequently release a charge of Chill Touch. (Up to the maximum touches allowed by the spell.)
Holding these charges do not go beyond the round the Magus cast it (So out-of-turn attacks such as AoO's may still deliver a charge of Chill touch. If made before the Magus's next turn.)
Okay, I think that is how it's supposed to be.
@ProfPots
I think it's interesting what you mentioned about that line of text not being applicable to Chill touch and its Ilk. And I will think/read more about it.
However, my knee jerk reaction is that is false. The rule cited covers touch spells that allow you to touch multiple targets(Chill touch says Target: creature/level). However, there is another rule that says you can only touch so many people as a full round actions
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
I believe the bolded refers to spells such as Communal Energy Resistance. Whereas the one quoted in the OP refers to spells like Chill touch, and possibly Also Communal Energy Resistance. If you fail to use the charges, then the spell is wasted.
These rules are separated, one is under the heading of Combat, the other under Durations. So they seem to both apply in this instance.
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Holding these charges do not go beyond the round the Magus cast it (So out-of-turn attacks such as AoO's may still deliver a charge of Chill touch. If made before the Magus's next turn.)
The extra touches / charges from chill touch most certainly do carry over into later rounds, just like any other held charge on a touch spell. If you step back and think on the history of the game, chill touch was around for many, many, years before the Spell Combat class feature was ever introduced - if only a Magus using Spell Combat could ever benefit from the extra touches, then that would be strange indeed!
However, my knee jerk reaction is that is false...
And your knee-jerk reaction is completely understandable, given that the rules text on touch spells is very confused (and, historically, known to be a source of confusion). The journey over from 3.5 to Pathfinder didn't help matters in this regards, as some of the supplimental explanatory / clarification text for touch spells which was published for 3.5, outside of the core OGL books, never made it across - that's no real reason to assume that Pathfinder intended to nerf melee touch attack spells into the ground and stomp on them, though... ;)
Forgetting the Magus for a moment, let's take a look at the most basic melee touch attack spell: shocking grasp. Now, shocking grasp has a duration if 'instantaneous', which usually means the spell's effect goes off the moment you cast the spell. In the case of shocking grasp, however, the rules on 'Touch Spells and Holding the Charge' (from page 216 of the core book, under the Duration section) come into play. What this means is that, essentially, the 'instantaneous' effect of the shocking grasp spell isn't to inflict electricity damage - it's to charge your hand with the ability to inflict electricity damage on the next thing it touches. So you can cast shocking grasp and wander around all day (with your hand stretched out carefully in front of you, so you don't accidentally touch anything and discharge the spell), and still inflict electricity damage on the first thing you do touch with that hand. That's what the text in the 'holding the charge' section means.
Taking a step back again, this makes a lot of sense. Why would any Wizard (the original users of shocking grasp long before the Magus was ever dreamed up) ever choose a spell which required them to not only get right into the enemy's face to use, but needed them to hit the guy in melee with their terrible Wizard lack-of-fighting-ability? Why not always choose a ranged spell instead? The answer is that the shocking grasp, unlike a ranged touch spell, is more of a guarantee of damage, because the Wizard gets to swing away at his foe, missing time and again, and when he eventually manages to score a hit, the electricity damage discharges. That's the basic payoff of a melee touch attack spell Vs a ranged touch attack spell.
Moving on to chill touch, the spell essentially works in the same manner. The 'instantaneous' effect is to charge your hand with the ability to inflict negative energy damage; the difference from shocking grasp is that chill touch charges your hand with this ability for a number of touches equal to your caster level. The 'holding the charge' rules still apply - you just have more 'touches' before the spell is classed as being 'discharged'.
Put another way, the effect of chill touch is discharged once you've made [caster level] touches with your glowing blue hand. As per the holding the charge rules, you hold the charge until the spell is discharged. Since nothing in the spell allows any extra attacks or touches per round, you can only make your usual number of attacks or touches per round, even when your hand is glowing blue thanks to the effect of the chill touch spell.
Throwing the Magus Spellstrike class feature into the mix simply allows you to make your melee touch attacks from spells as melee weapon attacks instead.
I'm not sure I agree you could use it on the second hit, since touching at all is usually a standard action that's been weaved into your attack routine. I might say you can use Spellstrike to deliver the first touch of chill touch, but can't deliver the second touch until the next round (but can use Spellstrike to deliver it on that next round) and as part of a full-round attack, like normal.
That's the other part that confuses a lot of people. :)
Making a touch attack with a weaponlike spell is a standard action. However, delivering a charge of the spell with an unarmed strike or other weapon through some legal method (such as spellstrike) isn't a standard action; it's part of that attack.
So, a magus can use spell combat as a full-round action to:
Ok, although I still think it's really hazy (The spell itself more than the general rules). I would have to agree upon the distinction between 'Allowing to touch multiple targets,and allowing multiple touches.'
So, here is how I see it working with a level 3 Magus.
-Magus uses Chill touch in concert with his spell combat.
-Casts Chill touch.
-Takes a 5 foot step towards enemy.
-Makes free attack granted by Touch range spells with a -2(spell combat) using spellstrike.
-Makes attacks based on his Base attack bonus -2.
If enough charges are being held, any hits he creates with his weapons will release a charge. So, assuming all hit, the magus will use 2 charges.
Any misses results in no charges being lost.
I am ruling that once spellstrike is activated (declared when casting), the 'caster' includes the character and his weapon. So the rule about accidental touching, and so on apply if things hit him or his weapon.
He cannot choose to not discharge a spell when using his weapon.
**Another quick question on accidental discharge. Can a charge only be involuntarily discharged if the object interacted with is a valid target? Chill touch specifies creatures touched. So being pegged by an arrow, or being whacked by a sword wouldn't release a charge would it?)
In other words, can you use Spellstrike more than once per round? Delivering touch spells (even pre-cast ones) through weapons isn't something you can normally do. In fact, the only way I know of to do so is unarmed strikes, but that's a special exception to the general rule.
Well, either the RAI of spellstrike is either: 1) to allow touch attacks from spells to be delivered via a weapon melee attack in the same manner as an unarmed strike; or 2) to only allow the free attack from casting to be delivered via weapon attack. I fall into opinion camp #1, because opinion #2 means you wouldn't even be able to spellstrike the chill touch charges in subsequent rounds and I think that's silly.
I could be completely wrong, however. That's why the spellstrike FAQ request thread Grick linked above exists, and why it has more than 40 faq requests on it. I highly encourage anyone interested in magi or who run a game with someone playing one to click the faq in that thread. Given the popularity of the class, it'll be a very welcome clarification when it finally happens.
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... So the rule about accidental touching, and so on apply if things hit him or his weapon...
I'd be careful with that sort of ruling, as you're effectively boosting the power of melee touch spells a great deal by giving the caster a 'damage shield' effect, which triggers when they're hit. That's not really the intent of such spells, as most people seem to see them.
Avoiding confusion on the whole 'accidental touch' issue is one of the reasons I tend to follow the chill touch style fluff for touch spells, and have the effect concentrated in one hand (or, with a Spellstriking Magus, the weapon in hand) - it's an easy way to visualise the spell effect, and to help you rule on stuff like accidental touches. Otherwise, if you go the 'whole body holds the charge' route, then you get into arguments about if the caster is touching his own clothes, or the floor, or whatever... better to save the headache, I feel, and designate a touching appendage! :)
Yes, craziness can ensue. Which is why I'll limit accidental discharge to valid targets of the spell, or for plot oopsies. So if someone hits him with a sword, or arrow, nothing will happen.
If I decide to be mean, Reflex saves for the allies when the magus walks through his allies squares. mwaha! :p
Anyways, Thank you all for helping me out. I have a much better handle on touch spells now :)