From the PRD:
To complete the action, you must then cast an appropriate spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (or have a slot of the appropriate level available), you cast it, creating a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.
The bolded part is what is confusing me.
Do you, or don't you, have to both know the spell you're countering, and have it prepared? What is the deal with the "or have a slot of the appropriate level available" bit?
I hate to be dense, but I'm not getting it.
The parenthetical portion is referring to other spellcasters who do not prepare spells, such as bards and sorcerers. They are permitted to use one of their daily spell slots, rather than a prepared spell (since they can't prepares spells).
They still need to have the same spell known, however.
So, the safe bet, for counterspelling, is to have some dispel magics and greater dispel magics ready and waiting, then.
yep. improved counterspell is useful as well
So, the safe bet, for counterspelling, is to have some dispel magics and greater dispel magics ready and waiting, then.
The safe bet is to not bother with counterspelling at all and to instead ready an action to blast the opposing spellcaster. That way you disrupt their spell AND deal damage (to them and possibly their henchmen as well).
Counterspelling is a clearly subpar option (primarily due to the above option being available). You should avoid it except for special circumstances (such as spell duels).
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So, the safe bet, for counterspelling, is to have some dispel magics and greater dispel magics ready and waiting, then.The safe bet is to not bother with counterspelling at all and to instead ready an action to blast the opposing spellcaster. That way you disrupt their spell AND deal damage (to them and possibly their henchmen as well).
Counterspelling is a clearly subpar option (primarily due to the above option being available). You should avoid it except for special circumstances (such as spell duels).
WHAT!?
It is way lower risk to attempt counterspelling than to risk you not even interrupting the spell that some casting baddie is throwing down. I've seen too many times that someone took the path you describe and found that it lead to the baddie's spell went off and really messed things up for their party.
You really want to risk that your spell doesn't take out his casting of finger of death? I sure don't.
Sure, counterspelling is a surer route, assuming that you have the spell in your known spells list, and either have a slot or prepared version available, which is, truly, a rarity.
And wasting a dispel on counterspelling is also, extremely, suboptimal, since you are better off turning off one of his buffs instead of a single spell cast.
Better off, if you can, is to ready a cast of a nasty damage spell, so he has to make an insane concentration check to actually cast his spell. If he is even still up after taking the damage.
And, if you aren't a spellcaster, you can usually ready an attack on the spellcaster which can help in that way, as well.
Consider Disruptive Spell, for instance, which makes it even harder for him to make his concentration check.
I think if you do not have improved Counterspell it is pointless, unless you KNOW a nasty spell is coming then prep a Dispel Magic.
As to readying something to disrupt the caster, may or may not work depending on their concentration AND what if you can't hit the broad side of a barn with an attack?
Important thing to remember:
Using Dispel Magic as a counterspell is not an auto-success.
If your cleric (high Fortitude saves, death ward) needs saving from a save or die spell, then something is already terribly wrong.
The great thing about counterspelling (Via same or opposed spell but NOT dispel magic) is that there is no check, no opposed caster levels etc etc, a 5th level Wizard can counter a 20th level wizard's Maximized fireball with NO CHECKS, and ruling out any interruption to the 5th level wizard's cast, no chance to fail as far as I can see from the rules.
Thats gotta be good value.
But the obvious draw back, like many stated is that you have to have the spell ready, but if you know your target well, you can put the odds a little more in your favour.
Edit: By no checks I mean on the dispelling itself, not the identifying, which is obviously a check
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The great thing about counterspelling (Via same or opposed spell but NOT dispel magic) is that there is no check, no opposed caster levels etc etc, a 5th level Wizard can counter a 20th level wizard's Maximized fireball with NO CHECKS, and ruling out any interruption to the 5th level wizard's cast, no chance to fail as far as I can see from the rules.
Thats gotta be good value.But the obvious draw back, like many stated is that you have to have the spell ready, but if you know your target well, you can put the odds a little more in your favour.
Edit: By no checks I mean on the dispelling itself, not the identifying, which is obviously a check
Of course, it doesn't help at all when that 20th level Wizard casts a Wish, Meteor Swarm or other spell that is not going to be available for the 5th level Wizard...
On the Cleric & Save or Die spells, indeed, you can always play a Cleric with a 5 Con, but he probably won't survive 1st level, since Clerics are, usually, a primary target at any level.
And, on Dispel, I would rather see that Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility, or some such go away, then try to prevent that DC 25 Save or Die when the target is at +15 to save. Sure, it sucks if your dice hate you, but that same low roll would fail on the counterspell, anyhow.
Readying a damage spell makes the most sense to me, after seeing the reasoning. IIRC, the concentration check DC is 10 or 15 plus level of spell you're casting, plus however much damage you just took.
And, if I'm reading combat casting correctly, the enemy caster wouldn't get that +4 bonus to his concentration check.
Of course, it doesn't help against a lot of the spells a lvl 20 could throw at a lvl 5, but if you were the level 20 caster, would you start a battle using such a high spell slot for a level 5 threat(s)?
I was simply trying to point out how it can be a great leveler of spell casters, as highly situational as it may be
And regarding Combat Casting, it only helps when casting defensively, IE when you're threatened while casting, its not an all round +4 to concentration checks
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Of course, it doesn't help against a lot of the spells a lvl 20 could throw at a lvl 5, but if you were the level 20 caster, would you start a battle using such a high spell slot for a level 5 threat(s)?
I was simply trying to point out how it can be a great leveler of spell casters, as highly situational as it may be
And regarding Combat Casting, it only helps when casting defensively, IE when you're threatened while casting, its not an all round +4 to concentration checks
Probably not the Meteor Swarm, but maybe an Ice Storm. Take 'em out quickly, with as little risk/expense as possible, and you are still staying above any possible auto fail level.
If your cleric (high Fortitude saves, death ward) needs saving from a save or die spell, then something is already terribly wrong.Because there is only one way to build and play a cleric, right?
No... because clerics start off with a good fortitude save and most of the buffs to render such spells nul and void upon arrival and the fact that I've seen all of one person ever 'dump' Con and even then it was a 10.
Honestly no -- it's highly unlikely that the bonuses will be that low on the save.
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No... because clerics start off with a good fortitude save and most of the buffs to render such spells nul and void upon arrival and the fact that I've seen all of one person ever 'dump' Con and even then it was a 10.If your cleric (high Fortitude saves, death ward) needs saving from a save or die spell, then something is already terribly wrong.Because there is only one way to build and play a cleric, right?So we take a dude first running into a spell, Finger of Death, in a battle that is considered "epic" for his party - putting his party at APL 9 facing down a 13th level wizard NPC.
That puts our cleric's base save at +6 fortitude. Add his constitution modifier, any bonus from magic items, and any feats - which we can assume some, but not all of apply - call it another +4 to his save for a total of +10.
Now we look at our caster baddie's save DC. Starts at 17 thanks to the level of the spell, add his feats and ability modifier to that... can we say that another 7 (say 5 from ability score and 2 from feats) is fair? That puts our DC at 24.
That's a less than 50/50 chance of success (35% to be precise) and we aren't even dealing with optimization on the side of the bad-guy.
But hey, that's just a reasonable scenario that assumes there might ever possibly be a moment when a cleric that has death ward prepared has not yet cast it because he doesn't yet realize it is the time to do so.
Must be a custom NPC, since any from most published stuff would be using the Elite array for stats. So 18 Int, +4. Maybe a +2 Int item. +5.
Burning his sole 7th level spell. Hmmm.
DC 22 or so. Unless the majority of his spells are from the same school as FoD, he wouldn't have burned Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus on the school.
Cleric, so 9th level from your APL, so +6 from class level. +2 from stat (everyone advises having a 14 Con, so...), +2, maybe +3 from a Cloak of Resistance, so +10.
He'll need a 12 or better to save, so 40% chance of failure. Not bad for an Epic encounter, which is supposed to burn 90-100% of a party's resources from fresh, and likely to kill one or more characters, even if they win.
And, let's see. The Cleric would need to use Dispel Magic to counterspell, so what are his odds of successfully counterspelling?
DC 17 to identify, if there is nothing to make it more difficult. So, better than 50% chance to ID the spell, if he has 9 ranks in Spellcraft.
Now, you make the Counterspell check: 1d20 + your caster level, your caster level is 9, so 1d20+9 against a DC of 11 + spell's caster level, so minimum 13, so DC 24, assuming that the enemy caster doesn't have anything that boosts his caster level for this spell. Hmmm. Needs a 15 or better to counterspell successfully, compared to a 12 or better to just plain survive.
Cost effective? Heh.
Sure counterspell is still a subpar choice -- you're better off hitting the guy while he is casting than trying to counter for the arcanist too.
Lets say it's been a few encounters so you've used your fifth level slot already heck you've even used a fourth level slot.
However if you have say Lightning bolt, fireball or enervation you can cause issues for the caster and force a concentration check.
Lets go with the enervation -- you hit he takes 1d4 negative energy levels, you're a focused arcane caster so you've topped off you casting stat (a 24~26 at this point) which means the DC for the enervation is 21~22 without spell focus.
Now that death spell coming in has to overcome a DC 28~29 Concentration check and the caster is 1d4 (2.5 on average) less on the check, meaning 13+5-1~4=14~11 so he needs a 12.5~14 to still cast the spell and then there is still the save throw for the cleric. That's a 50~65% success rate (with the 28 otherwise you have a 55%~70% success rate of forcing him to fail his spell).
So you've lowered the bad guys save throws, attack rolls, caster level, Hit points, and skill check in addition to forcing him to try to cast the spell with a higher failure rate on his end.
Using the fireball and getting average damage with him still saving means that you'll see 17 points of damage which would give a concentration check of 34.
Now instead you could still go with scorching ray too -- You'll get two rays which is going to get out 24 points of damage so the concentration check will be a 41 for the death ray.
However lets say you're down to just magic missiles. 5 missiles are going to average 3.5 damage each or 17.5 points of damage, for a concentration check of 34.5 for the death spell, which is still going to be a failure rate for the death spell of 75% (34-18=16+ for success on casting the spell).
As you can see forcing a concentration check by hitting the guy with an actual spell has a higher success rate than trying to counter spell.
Considering there is no save throw for enervation it's a great spell to use. Personally I save Dispel magic for out of combat uses, or dispelling the odd SoS.
I would never claim a cleric will always have a death ward up -- but he's unlikely to need it.
And it's a +4 BAB -- but that doesn't account for any other bonuses he might have. Indeed it's unlikely that the touch AC will be higher than a 15.
However I covered a range of different spells that could be used precisely because you might decide that enervation is something he might manage to have a defense again (though I would like to know what defense).
With the blasting spells I assumed he passed the save -- something you should have noticed.
Spell resistance is going to be a joke if he has it at 13th level. Unless suddenly you're going to say he's drow on top of being level 13 (puts him up to a CR 15 by the way) and even then counter spelling is still a bad choice.
Interrupting is much easier to do, is likely to have an effect even if it fails to end the spell, and doesn't waste a slot for no effect over 2/3 of the time.
However if you don't want to hear that you don't want to hear that.
Even if you don't like the interrupt you are still better off with other options -- like buffing the cleric before the spell lands (since readied actions happen first).
At the end of the day the only time you should counter spell is if you are bored or a wizard specialist of the counterspell subschool of abjuration.
Our party has a sorcerer who once spells start flying readys scorching ray against any spell caster he deems worthy lets just say that 8d6(Avg. 28) from the two rays tends to cause some disruption in magical service.
How did we end up in a super necro fight without enough forwarning that we didn't know we were fighting a super necro?
A 13th level necromancer and what cleric doesn't have death ward ready to go before the fight. I mean any cleric who knows anything about this fight is gonna have no issues from his finger of death spells.
Yes the other caster knows i ready fire spells.
Yes he has resist energy prepared.
No the caster cannot be gauranteed to know before initiative the he is facing me within [10mins/level time]
No the caster cannot be gauranteed to get a higher inititave than me.
That means their are time, lots of them actually, that i get to interrupt spells because they can't be ready all the time.
........Or am I insane for applying your logic back on my situation.
Also who else is in this party Frodo and hte Hobbits if beating one guy wins the fight at 9th level.
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yep. improved counterspell is useful as well
Interrupting the 'How to Build a Cleric' pissing contest for a minute, and getting back to the thread...
Improved Counterspell becomes much more attractive, the more rules sources are being used in the campaign.
Even in a Core-Only game, there's a lot of spells, and the chance of having the right one is low, without prior intel.
Once you start adding the APG, UM, UC, region guides, race guides, independent spell research, the likelihood of the opposing caster having a spell you've not expected rises accordingly. Some of those spells you may never have encountered before, or even heard of.
Even if the NPC casters are being run as written from a scenario, with only spell choices from the Core book, the players will presumably be using every source open to them, which means the NPC's chance of countering the PCs' spells are minimal, without Improved Counterspell.
Those were my experiences, playing an abjuration specialist wizard in Shackled City to level 18, using the 3.5 PH and Spell Compendium. Pathfinder currently must have at least as many official spells as that.
Yes the other caster knows i ready fire spells.
Yes he has resist energy prepared.
No the caster cannot be gauranteed to know before initiative the he is facing me within [10mins/level time]
No the caster cannot be gauranteed to get a higher inititave than me.
That means their are time, lots of them actually, that i get to interrupt spells because they can't be ready all the time.
........Or am I insane for applying your logic back on my situation.
Also who else is in this party Frodo and hte Hobbits if beating one guy wins the fight at 9th level.
Except you're comparing a 10 minutes/level 2nd level spell cast by a 13th level caster to a 1 minute/level 4th level spell cast by a 9th level caster.
The necromancer could easily afford to prep two resist energy spells each day, and have 260 minutes = 4 hours & 20 minutes worth of protection, at the cost of losing some unimportant spell slots. He's also high enough level that he could even have a contingency to cast resist energy on himself as soon as he sees the party.
Meanwhile, the cleric in question could cast death ward 2-4 times per day, at the cost of some of his most powerful spell slots. At 9 minutes per cast, that's a maximum of 36 minutes.
So yes, while it's theoretically possible the necromancer isn't protected when the party finds him, it's a lot less likely than the cleric not being protected.
My sorcerer has a headband of counterspelling and dispel magic. Disrupting casting with damage? Feh - that's what the barbarian, archer, and swashbuckler are for.
It turned out to be a good build for one of the boss fights in Rise of the Runelords
http://paulmurray.wordpress.com/2014/09/24/something-for-everyone/