One of the things that has been a regular occurance in pretty much every game I've run since the 90s has involved crafting magic items. This by itself is pretty cool, but where it becomes a nuisance is where players want to craft items that you don't want to hand out (to get around it never showing up in a store or treasure pile)
To circumnavigate this, I've made it so crafting magical items also requires a "recipe" of sorts that involves a very rare ingredient. Certain items wouldn't be that big a deal to create, but other items could require a quest unto itself to find the ingredients needed.
Anyhow, something came up recently that I've not yet experienced.
A player coming in as a level 1 fighter wants to take craft arms/armor as a skill and wants to use his starting gold to buy half-plate, getting it for 1/3 the cost and just saying that he made it.
My take on it was that he is free to start the game with nothing but raw materials, but it's not guaranteed that he'd start off with the time to craft an entire suit of armor.
I've noticed a familiar issue where players want to come in to the game with an animal companion already trained up with all of the tricks they want because "it doesn't make sense that I'd have spent the entire time before the campaign started not training my animal".
How have you dealt with this type of thing?
Well, the crafting rules are the way they are because Paizo feels that if a character "can" create an item (in cases of magic items is the appropriate caster level, has the feats, has the spells needed, etc) that the character in question should be able to do so "easily."
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1tlu?Magic-Item-Creation-and-Caster-Level#17
That is intentional--as long as they're picking items for which they meet all the prereqs, they should have no chance of failure.
That said, if an item takes craft armor, weapons is a different craft skill if you look at the craft skill description in skills in the CRB, it is up to you to decide if he starts with purchased armor or crafted armor, which 1/2 the price, not 1/3.
I can understand what your players are saying. In the case of a human, you start off around 20 years old, for an Elf, it's more like 120 years old, so it's natural to think that you didn't just wake up yesterday and decide to be a fighter, summoner, etc and that you'd have some stuff to show for that training to get you to level 1. That said, it's up to you as GM to give them anything, if anything at all, from that time. To me, it makes sense to have some tricks trained on an animal if the class grants it at level 1. Likewise, how did I actually "learn" my ranks in craft (armor) if I haven't actually made anything? It sounds to me like your players are trying to roleplay it out a bit but I wouldn't give them everything they ask for. Having a fully tricked out animal is cool and all but they should have to work toward fleshing out their character in game rather than coming to the table full-fledged. Otherwise, whats the point of playing?
HTH
I understand. I'm just trying to preserve some game balance.
If the fighters are all starting out at level 1 with an AC of 19 or 20 and the average to-hit mod of appropriate CR creatures is roughly +4 or +5, that goes beyond what I consider balanced (I aim for at-level challenges hitting around 40-60%, not 10-25%)... the end result is I'd feel compelled to upgrade the challenges.
I'd be more apt to give an animal companion a given trick (and more than likely 9/10 it will be "attack") starting out the gate but make them train after that.
As to starting out with half plate, they are all welcome to blow their starting gold on material but... chances are they won't have a week or two off starting out to craft all of their armor. To me that seems like a backdoor.
I have no problem with craft being used to make half plate armor later on but starting off with it seems a bit cheeky to me.
As to starting out with half plate, they are all welcome to blow their starting gold on material but... chances are they won't have a week or two off starting out to craft all of their armor. To me that seems like a backdoor.
I have no problem with craft being used to make half plate armor later on but starting off with it seems a bit cheeky to me.
That's fine. Just realize it's your personality dictating that which is totally cool. Per the rules, it's legit.
Concerning the AC of 20, that's nothing breaking. I can make a fighter or monk with a starting AC of 20 easily enough and still have good attack without doing anything "backdoorsey" like trying to say I crafted my own armor. In this, don't constrain your players. As long as they're taking the appropriate feats, their ability scores are legit, etc let them be awesome. Adjust your campaign as is appropriate within the confines of your campaign to challenge them if they're fighting things "too easily." Just keep in mind people play to have fun and more often than not that means feeling powerful, especially to fighters and martial types.
Concerning balance, keep in mind that CR equal to party level means the party is supposed to win without much difficulty. That's how the CR scale is designed. Work within that scale for "hard" fights. Just keep in mind there is a balance along that scale and there is a point where the players go from hardly hitting the enemy to not really at all and that point can creep up on you fairly quickly.
I know it's my personality. I've had more than enough 3/3.5 campaigns breaking from over powered characters so I'm a lot more conservative now.
I'm trying to avoid having to up encounter difficulties this time around. They are on a 10/15 point buy system which has helped. I don't want to be spending hours trying to make sure the encounters aren't going to be walked all over with no effort like I have had to do in the past.
Monsters that are only hitting 25% of the time on a regular basis cross that threshold for me. Even bumping the monsters up +2 wouldn't fix that, I'd have to go up to an advanced CR+1 to bring them up to the % probability I want.
Then by all means increase the CR. Though, it sounds like you've already started playing and the characters in their current iteration have already been in play? It would be a bit more cheeky to me to suddenly gank things from the players. However, you could send them up against a BBEG who specializes in sundering/debilitating its opponents and through this you could potentially destroy your characters armor. That said, he could still repair it so either deal with the remains or let that happen if you want him/her to "earn" it.
Just some thoughts.
Also I've had bad experience before with having to up an encounter and making it too powerful. My last 3.5 campaign had this happen a couple of times, because to challenge the party I needed an EL +5, and at that point you can slip over the edge that you speak of and make it a little too potent.
I'm not gunning for that level of difficulty, I'm just trying to keep the sweet spot in the same area.
Personally I allow a portion (usually 30%) of starting wealth to be spent on crafting if you have the appropriate abilities. And I put limit (50%) on how much of your wealth any individual item can be. This applies both to early levels and to later levels with magic items if applicable.
The reason for this is craft skills and to a larger extent magic item creation feats are a resource. You have put resources (feats or skill points) into them and ought to receive a benefit early in the game, and not have to wait a dozen or more sessions to have the opportunity to use them. The fighter with weapon focus or the rogue with acrobatics doesnt need to wait to use their feats and skills, crafters shouldnt have to either.
That said, its up to you, just make sure you tell your players about the restrictions before they choose the skill/feat. Because honestly it takes a long time to craft a suit of armor, if they cant do it before hand, there is a solid chance they wont get much use out of the skill (by the time they have the downtime to use it they may be getting magic arms and amror depending on the pace of the game).
That's fine. Just realize it's your personality dictating that which is totally cool. Per the rules, it's legit.
No,
It depends on how you interpret the rules. The rules do not say you can pay crafting price for equipment you start with. It says you can use your wealth by level to purchase equipment. Purchasing equipment would require you to pay full price. There's a lot of debate on this point, but it's perfectly valid for the GM to rule that no, you can't 'craft' to cheapen to starting cost. Nothing saying he can't purchase the armor and say he made it, and be telling the truth. But WBL is a measure of wealth, not starting cash. So the OP is perfectly able to rule that starting out, you pay full price for equipment, even if you made it.
I would suggest going over the combat rules in the Pathfinder book. I've found a zillion and one nuanced changes from talking to people from 3.5. Since I don't have that background, I simply tell them what's in Pathfinder which inevitably leads into discussions about the differences and how "no it's not like that in Pathfinder." This may clear up some issues for you if you read those chapters thoroughly and try your best to forget 3.5. If your players only have experience with Pathfinder, they may very well be doing stuff that makes total sense to them but is conflicting with your knowledge base given your varied background. Just a thought.
I must ask: are you one of those GMs who thinks at least one player character should fall unconscious for the combat to be "challenging?"
Then by all means increase the CR. Though, it sounds like you've already started playing and the characters in their current iteration have already been in play? It would be a bit more cheeky to me to suddenly gank things from the players. However, you could send them up against a BBEG who specializes in sundering/debilitating its opponents and through this you could potentially destroy your characters armor. That said, he could still repair it so either deal with the remains or let that happen if you want him/her to "earn" it.
Just some thoughts.
This is for a new campaign starting in January. Some of the players involved play in my Monday night group which is alreayd running.
I must ask: are you one of those GMs who thinks at least one player character should fall unconscious for the combat to be "challenging?"
No.
"Challenging" to me means that there is a real threat of danger, where the players actually feel their characters are in danger.
I believe in easy encounters being neccessary to show off power, but when every encounter is a cake walk, this is where I have issues.
Being KO'd is not a requirement I have. Tension, however, is.
No,
It depends on how you interpret the rules. The rules do not say you can pay crafting price for equipment you start with. It says you can use your wealth by level to purchase equipment. Purchasing equipment would require you to pay full price. There's a lot of debate on this point, but it's perfectly valid for the GM to rule that no, you can't 'craft' to cheapen to starting cost. Nothing saying he can't purchase the armor and say he made it, and be telling the truth. But WBL is a measure of wealth, not starting cash. So the OP is perfectly able to rule that starting out, you pay full price for equipment, even if you made it.
Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment. As a character adventures, he accumulates more wealth that can be spent on better gear and magic items. Table: Starting Character Wealth lists the starting gold piece values by class. In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less. For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level.
Nothing in that says that you can't buy crafting materials with starting gold. The WBL chart only comes in after level 1. At level 1, it is very much a starting cash stat.
I was incorrect. For non-magical items the cost is 1/3, not 1/2. My mistake. However, all the crafting skill states is that you pay the cost, roll the DC (that can be "take 10"-ed on which is basically an auto success), and take the time to craft the item. Which, the time component is where I can see the debate coming in. I can see the player arguing their starting years is ample time. GMs can argue that times needs to be in game. Have that discussion among yourselves.
Yup yup. That was what they were wanting to do.
I've thought about it most of the night and this morning and put in the stipulation that starting characters cannot craft items as part of their initial gear.
I'd like to keep the half plate and full plate out of the game at level 1. Of course they can get enough treasure to make a set at level 1, and that's fine by me as well, but not starting right out of the gate.
If you really want to keep them out then you'll need to debo the rich parents trait too. It gives a starting gp of 900 and the half plate only costs 600, leaving much more than any class's starting GP even with that. Either that or simply say that their starting market simply doesn't have certain items.
The only traits we use are the ones found in the adventure path we are in.
Kingmaker didn't have one of those and the one I'm writing for this new group also does not have one that gives bonus starting gold so that shouldn't be an issue for this.
Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment. As a character adventures, he accumulates more wealth that can be spent on better gear and magic items. Table: Starting Character Wealth lists the starting gold piece values by class. In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less. For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level.Nothing in that says that you can't buy crafting materials with starting gold. The WBL chart only comes in after level 1. At level 1, it is very much a starting cash stat.
It says, as you quoted, 'he can spend on things'. If he wants to spend it on crafting materials, that's fine and dandy. But Crafting Materials do not work very well as MW armor. Not until you take the time to turn them into armor. if you want armor, you have to spend the coins on armor, not crafting materials.
It says, as you quoted, 'he can spend on things'. If he wants to spend it on crafting materials, that's fine and dandy. But Crafting Materials do not work very well as MW armor. Not until you take the time to turn them into armor. if you want armor, you have to spend the coins on armor, not crafting materials.
That's where the player could very well argue that his time spent previous to the start of the campaign becoming what they are and the item was created then since they didn't just wake up day being able to use the craft skill, they could say it was the piece they made to gain that one rank. It's up to the GM to say if it's legit or not. Also, nothing states that the characters become level 1 at the start of the first session of the campaign. The characters could have been level 1 for months or even years. This could be used to reinforce their argument that they could have created it before the first session, of course the GM can overrule and say no. I'm not saying you're wrong but it can be used to argue a certain way and, in terms of roleplay, it makes absolute sense.
How have you dealt with this type of thing?
I let them do it, because I don't find that it unbalances the game significantly.
How have you dealt with this type of thing?I let them do it, because I don't find that it unbalances the game significantly.
I'm finding it shifts the to-hit % for the monsters from about 40% to 25%.
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Have him roll the dice.
Crafting a half-plate is DC 18.
Since he is a Fighter, I suppose that he has INT 10 max. That would give him a bonus on Craft checks of +4 (1 skill rank +3 for class skill).
He will make progress on his work as long as he rolls 14+.
He will make zero progress if he rolls 10-13.
Each time he rolls 9-, he will make zero progress AND will have to pay half the original raw material cost again (on the condition that he has enough gold left of course).
And he will need to roll at least 14 times to finish the job (that would be if he rolled a nat 20 every time).
More likely, around 55 rolls will be required. Thus he is likely to roll a 9- approximately 24 times
You can expect his attempt to cost him more than 4 times the market price. More likely he will be carrying around an unfinished (and useless) half-plate which took at least 200 gp from his starting gold.
Ain't life great ?
Very good point.
The problem with that is if the player fails to make his armor, he's running around with no armor at all, and will likely scrap the character and make a new one (pointless) or go out with no armor and get wailed on.
Have him roll the dice.
Crafting a half-plate is DC 18.
Since he is a Fighter, I suppose that he has INT 10 max. That would give him a bonus on Craft checks of +4 (1 skill rank +3 for class skill).
He will make progress on his work as long as he rolls 14+.
He will make zero progress if he rolls 10-13.
Each time he rolls 9-, he will make zero progress AND will have to pay half the original raw material cost again (on the condition that he has enough gold left of course).
And he will need to roll at least 14 times to finish the job (that would be if he rolled a nat 20 every time).
More likely, around 55 rolls will be required. Thus he is likely to roll a 9- approximately 24 times
You can expect his attempt to cost him more than 4 times the market price. More likely he will be carrying around an unfinished (and useless) half-plate which took at least 200 gp from his starting gold.
Ain't life great ?
It's people like you, actually reading the rules, who ruin it for all the munchkins :P
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My rule for making characters with crafting skills or magic item crafting feat has always been that you can start with a crafted item if you could succeed by taking 10.
In the OP example, crafting half-plate is DC 18. So, assuming he doesn't have an 18 intelligence or skill focus (armorer)and a 12 Int or something like that, I wouldn't allow him to start with half-plate. If he wanted to press his luck and attempt to make it at first level, risking the loss of resources, then I would allow him to make the rolls after the game started. I've never had a player try this though. Generally, they just start with a few items/magic items that they could easily create.
I don't have a limit for the amount of starting gp that could be spent in this fashion, because no one has gone to an extreme yet and irritated me enough to create a rule. I would probably go with the above poster's suggestion of no more than 50% or your starting money can be spent on crafted items.
I use item crafting when designing npc's pretty often, giving them the requisite feats/skills and figuring they have had plenty of time to sit around and make items.