So i'm considering adding a Dwarven NPC to my campaign. The problem is I can't decide whether to make the character a Barbarian, a Fighter or mix between the two.
I've read that from a DPR perspective the 2 hander + power attack has become the definitive gold standard for warrior style damage, but honestly have not really been able to see any clear distinction between the two classes on which is more optimal. Nor have i been able to find much in the way of "use the combo for this effect" style build guides.
I'd love to make the character a TWF but from what I've seen the idea is borderline stupid in comparison to the feat investment required before it actually starts to pay off.
Any thoughts on this guys? (Yes links to previous forum posts or existing web sites that cover this well are perfectly acceptable.)
Thanks guys!
~ Lazlo ~
If you go dwarf think about taking steel soul to really drive those saves home.
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Fighters will have better armor to avoid getting hit, while barbarians have better HP to be able to take the hits. And barbarian rage will give them even more HP while raging, while also letting them hit more often and harder (+2 to str bonus, which is +2 to hit and +3 damage with 2 handed weapons).
Other than that, fighters get a lot more feats, so if there are a lot of feat related combat bonuses and abilities you'd like to get, then go fighter. Barbarians get rage powers instead, so take a look at the rage powers to see what you think of those.
I know more about barbarians, just because I play one, and the one other big thing that they get is the invulnerable rager archetype. That gives damage reduction equal to half their barbarian level, and you don't even have to be raging.
My level 4 barbarian just took MAJOR advantage of that tonight. We had two battles against different beasties that got a lot of attacks per round - one got 3 attacks per round, and the other got 5. Because the damage per hit wasn't too terrible, and I was knocking 2 points off the damage each time, I was able to soak up a LOT of hits with no problem. And because of my low AC, I actually did get hit by almost every attack for 2 or 3 rounds in each fight. One of them actually got me down to 1 HP, but that much damage easily would have killed any other member of our group.
As a GM, what are you trying to accomplish with this NPC?
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Another area where fighters outshine barbarians is reach weapons. The Polearm Master archetype gives fighters lots of extra power there that barbarians just don't get, as far as I can find.
But yeah, it really depends on what you're trying to do by adding this NPC. If all you want is an extra meatshield, barbarian is probably the better choice for the extra HP. But you mention 2h + Power Attack, so it looks like you want a damage dealer as well.
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In fact, you don't even need Power Attack. I have a Fighter at PFS that is based around intimidate. Rather than doing more damage, he uses Dazzling Display to shaken any enemy in 15 feet and then he uses Shatter Defenses to fight Flat-Footed AC. But thats not as important as the feats that the fighter get, such as weapon specialization. If you plan on having two weapons, Fighter can be so much better. At 4th level they have 5 feats instead of a barbarians 2 at 4th level, so two weapon fighting is within reach. Of course, assuming you want the dwarf to be 4th level.
Yeah, damage output is roughly similar overall except for specific builds (RAGELANCEPOUNCE)--it's mostly a choice between AC (Fighter) and HP/Saves (Barbarian).
Barbarians and Fighters are roughly equally good with Two-Handers--the archetype lets you use more of your Strength bonus, but Barbarians get a higher one to begin with. Urban Barbarian makes Archery just as good, as well.
Two Weapon Fighting and Sword and Board (which is really just more different two-weapon fighting) is a Fighter's domain, though--there's too many feats for a Barbarian to worry about, considering they need to spend most of their feats on Extra Rage Powers. TWF has one of the highest damage outputs on a full attack, but it is hurt the most by being reduced to a Standard Action attack, so it generally balances dpr-wise.
Fighters are generally better with maneuvers overall, but Barbarians can really get a lot of mileage out of picking a specific maneuver and focusing on it--Sudden Strength or whatever it's called basically ensures a successful Maneuver.
The one key to making Barbarians shine is getting immunity to Fatigue before level 17 so you can cycle Rage on and off to reuse once per rage abilities over and over. 5 levels of the Monk archetype Martial Artist does that. A one level dip of Lame Oracle is probably a better choice, though--they can be immune to fatigue by level 9. The human racial trait Heart of the Fields lets you ignore Fatigue once per day, which is a good stop gap, but if you're a Dwarf, I have to be honest, I know nothing about them.
As a GM, what are you trying to accomplish with this NPC?
Yeah, you guys have pretty much hit it on the head. I'm looking for "Barbarian-Rage-Kill" type of character like the classic dwarven battle ragers, etc. As far as whether the classic fighter is a better / worse class for this or not however i don't really know. What i can say (which may influence the answer) is the campaign "high level" typically pans out between level 8 - 12, so building a character that doesn't get "the good stuff" until level 13 + is really worthless in this case.
That being said, does that change the answer?
Lazlo
Sword and board TWF? Use a Dwarven waraxe and a shield.
Sword and board TWF? Use a Dwarven waraxe and a shield.
No. TWF or 2handed are the combat styles I'm looking at for this character. Sword and Board definitely has the wrong feel to it even if the math was superior.
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I'd go mostly Barbarian, but maybe consider a couple of levels of fighter, if you are interested in picking up extra feats and perhaps even wearing heavy (Mithral) armor. Mithral Full Plate is some amazingly special armor for a Dwarven Fighter/Barbarian: they get to move at 30' speed while wearing it. If you want to be a strong melee combatant when you DON'T rage, picking up fur levels of fighter (including weapon focus and weapon specialization) will help your cause. When you are looking at rage powers, don't overlook Reckless Abandon: the bonus to attack (especially when combined with Rage bonuses to STR) will help you compete with pure fighters (who have weapon training to help them out).
Going four levels deep into a fighter dip can give you three bonus feats,including Weapon Specialization, and also (if you go Weapon Master) get you some Weapon Training (+1 to attack, +1 to damage w/ a class of weapons). Weapon Training is cool. Gloves of Dueling are VERY cool.