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For example: +1 Spiked Gauntlets... Are they considered a weapon or do they take up your hand slot as they are "worn".
At what point is it considered one or the other (held vs. worn)?
Any enchanted handwear takes up the hand slot. So if you wanted a magical glove AND a +1 spiked gauntlet you'd need to combine the two enchantments into one.
If you're wearing magic gloves, you aren't wearing the gauntlets that come with your armor. They don't contribute to the AC, and you can't wear gloves and gauntlets on your hands at the same time (that's two different items in one slot). Unless you have some rule that allows you to wear two different things in the same slot, both magical? And gauntlets certainly aren't wielded. If they were, you wouldn't be able to cast spells or do other activities that required a free hand, as that hand would be busy 'wielding' the gauntlets.
Any enchanted handwear takes up the hand slot. So if you wanted a magical glove AND a +1 spiked gauntlet you'd need to combine the two enchantments into one.
However Spiked Gauntlets are a weapon, a (simple) light weapon to be precise, that just happen to be worn over the hands.
By that same token of them needing to be "worn", a-la hand slot, where does that then leave a shield, which also need to be "worn" to gain its benefit? Do you then also lose your arm slot?
Any enchanted handwear takes up the hand slot. So if you wanted a magical glove AND a +1 spiked gauntlet you'd need to combine the two enchantments into one.However Spiked Gauntlets are a weapon, a (simple) light weapon to be precise, that just happen to be worn over the hands.
By that same token of them needing to be "worn", a-la hand slot, where does that then leave a shield, which also need to be "worn" to gain its benefit? Do you then also lose your arm slot?
You know, that is a wonderful idea to deal with these people that want to use a 0% ASF mithril buckler for extra AC on a sorcerer/wizard/witch. I think I am going to start ruling exactly that: use a shield or bracers, but not both. THANK YOU, PATHOS!
And perhaps I am in the minority, but I have always ruled that a spiked gauntlet--or just a gauntlet--prevents you from wearing magical gloves. I'd rule the same thing with cestus or brass knuckles (or any other weapon that has to be worn).
Master Arminas
Sure, your game, your ruling - but shouldn't it be over in the Home Rules section, and not in the Rules Questions section?
Yes, if it was not a reply to someone else in this thread!
MA
However Spiked Gauntlets are a weapon, a (simple) light weapon to be precise, that just happen to be worn over the hands.
Magic Items on the Body - Hands: gauntlets and gloves.
By that same token of them needing to be "worn", a-la hand slot, where does that then leave a shield, which also need to be "worn" to gain its benefit? Do you then also lose your arm slot?
Magic Items on the Body - Shield: shields.
This is amazing. A masterwork gauntlet doesn't use up the slot, but a magic one does. This means +1 Full Plate uses up the Armor slot (the armor), Hands slot (the gauntlets), Feet slot (boots), Head slot (the visored helmet), and Body slot (the padding under the armor). By RAW:
"Full Plate: This metal suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor."
I hope you gauntlet crusaders are happy.
@nosig
No offense intended, but I don't care how many times you think it's been hashed out. You cannot wear gauntlets and gloves at the same time. As pointed out above, each takes up the same slot, which means you can't wear two at once. Unless you think you can wear two amulets at the same time and get the same benefit, or five rings on each hand.
And the shield is it's own slot, so that's a strawman argument.
Fun fact: If an item takes up a slot, it will say so somewhere in the description.
Now look at the description for any gauntlets that are not already classified as Wondrous Items.
I'll wait.
Fun fact: If an item takes up a slot, it will say so somewhere in the description.
So +1 Full Plate doesn't take up the armor slot?
However Spiked Gauntlets are a weapon, a (simple) light weapon to be precise, that just happen to be worn over the hands.Magic Items on the Body - Hands: gauntlets and gloves.
By that same token of them needing to be "worn", a-la hand slot, where does that then leave a shield, which also need to be "worn" to gain its benefit? Do you then also lose your arm slot?Magic Items on the Body - Shield: shields.
This is amazing. A masterwork gauntlet doesn't use up the slot, but a magic one does. This means +1 Full Plate uses up the Armor slot (the armor), Hands slot (the gauntlets), Feet slot (boots), Head slot (the visored helmet), and Body slot (the padding under the armor). By RAW:
"Full Plate: This metal suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor."
I hope you gauntlet crusaders are happy.
Magic Items: Armor:
"Armor is always created so that if the type of armor comes with a pair of boots, a helm, or a set of gauntlets, these pieces can be switched for other magic boots, helms, or gauntlets."
Fun fact: If an item takes up a slot, it will say so somewhere in the description.
Now look at the description for any gauntlets that are not already classified as Wondrous Items.
I'll wait.
Fun Fact: Your conclusion leads to the absurdity of having both +1 Flaming Spiked Gaunlets (no slot) and Gauntlet's of Rust (hands) worn over each other. What a wonderful visual image that is.
Fun fact: If an item takes up a slot, it will say so somewhere in the description.So +1 Full Plate doesn't take up the armor slot?
"+1 Full Plate" isn't a specific item. It doesn't even have a description.
Any described armor has "Slot: armor", in it's description.
The developers don't bother with slots for armor and weapons because they (falsely) assume people are going to use at least 20 IQ points and figure out that if it's a gauntlet, and gauntlets are listed as being for hand slots in the item slot table, then they take up the hand slot, and there is no need to list it in the equipment section. The only reason it's listed in the WI section is that the stat block is standardized to have the slot in it. Nowhere will you see Gauntlets or Gloves that DO NOT take up the hand slot in the WI tables.
As I said, I don't know why the Dev's continue to insist that there's no reason to be asininely obsessive compulsive in this stuff. The reliance on people to use reasonable brain matter is obviously a bad design decision.
Fun fact: If an item takes up a slot, it will say so somewhere in the description.So +1 Full Plate doesn't take up the armor slot?
"+1 Full Plate" isn't a specific item. It doesn't even have a description.
Any described armor has "Slot: armor", in it's description.
Wrong.
Full Plate: This metal suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor. Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4 × 100) gold pieces.
Nothing in there about slot.
If instead you mean any specific magic item armor, then you are correct, including Mithral Full Plate of Speed. By your logic however, you could wear full plate and mithral full plate of speed, because Full Plate (from equipment chapter) has no slot listed, and mithral full plate says armor slot.
Fun Fact: Your conclusion leads to the absurdity of having both +1 Flaming Spiked Gaunlets (no slot) and Gauntlet's of Rust (hands) worn over each other. What a wonderful visual image that is.Fun fact: If an item takes up a slot, it will say so somewhere in the description.
Now look at the description for any gauntlets that are not already classified as Wondrous Items.
I'll wait.
This is not an issue about magic item interference, as they are two different enhancements (weapon vs wondrous item). Magic Item Body Slots are talking specifically about "keying to the body slot".
Rather, the conundrum you describe is more akin to having a shield in one hand and trying to wield a two handed weapon. There's rules for how this can be done (with a buckler, but loses certain bonuses and has penalties, etc).
Likewise, you can't wear two pairs of gauntlets at the same time. Yes, this may be getting into a bit of GM adjudication, because the ruleset isn't going to go through every combination of equipment physically wearable and compare it to the rest.
Gauntlets and Gloves however normally work together (usually you'd have a pair of gloves either under the gauntlets, or attached to them).
It's not a stretch to imagine wearing Wondrous Item gloves under your Weapon enhanced gauntlets.
As they are using two completely separate magical enhancement methods, FOR GAME BALANCE PURPOSES the gloves + (weapon) gauntlets issue is moot.
If the GM wants to say that the particular combination won't make sense on premade purchased or found items, that's cool. They weren't designed to work together, etc.
If I had custom gauntlets made however, I'd have them require mundane or otherwise gloves be underneath, so that I could additionally wear a magical glove as well.
Wrong.
Full Plate: This metal suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor. Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4 × 100) gold pieces.Nothing in there about slot.
You've completely ignore/missed my point.
There is no slot description because slots are for magical items. You only quoted the mundane item description, not a description of "+1 full plate".
My point was that your issue is not with magical item slots, but rather pieces of equipment that shouldn't be wearable at the same time.
This is obvious when you look at "full plate + full plate", but less obvious when it comes to "gloves + gauntlets".
It has been quoted by a developer before already that you can wear 20 rings if you want, you can even wear 20 magical rings. But only 2 will work, because there are only two "body slots" for rings. This is why Forge Ring is high level.
Ultimately, my point is that you don't use "Magic Item Body Slot" rules to determine just any item wearable together.
What about wearing gloves and gauntlets together at the same time... but just mundane?
Or perhaps an amulet around your neck and a brooch on your lapel? Is that asinine thinking too?
I am not missing your point at all, you are missing mine.
Your logic says that weapon slot and magic item hand slot are two different things, and there's no correlation between them. That is exactly what you are saying.
And I am saying that following that logic, you get the absurdity of +1 Spiked Flaming Gauntlets (Weapon) and Rusting Guantlets (Magic Item Hand Slot) being worn at the same time, because by your logic, they are not connected.
There are always multiple ways to interpret rules. The RAI is, almost exclusively, the way that doesn't result in absurd end results. So, you can interpret the slot table saying 'Gloves and Gauntlets' to mean you can wear both at the same time (which is absurd, as you can then wear Gauntlets of Rusting and Gloves of the Duelist), or you can interpret it to mean that any gloves or gauntlets worn take up this slot.
By the same token, you can interpret things so that a spiked gauntlet doesn't stop you from wearing magic item equipment on the hands slot, but then you have to allow rusting gauntlets to be worn simultaneously with spiked flaming gauntlets. Again, an absurdity.
Or you can interpret gauntlets to be a special case item where a weapon takes up the hand slot instead of the weapon slot (which is patently the case, since you can wield a magic weapon while wearing them).
Of the ways to interpret the rules, yours leads to logical absurdities, and mine leads to non-absurdities.
Until a Dev weighs in saying you can wear spiked gauntlets and gauntlets of rusting simultaneously, I think the clear winner there is the ruling that doesn't provoke absurdities.
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I have never seen any of this as a problem in any game. When we have situations like the gauntlets of rust and a magic spiked gauntlet, we assume the wondrous item reshapes to accommodate, just like they do to fit different sized users. I think that it is assumed that most people don't over analyze it that much.
Technically, we still do have a difference between the weaponized gauntlet (armored protection with spiky goodness) and the clothing-based gauntlet (leather glove with a flared cuff covering up part of the forearm).
I am not missing your point at all, you are missing mine.
Your logic says that weapon slot and magic item hand slot are two different things, and there's no correlation between them. That is exactly what you are saying.
Correct so far.
And I am saying that following that logic, you get the absurdity of +1 Spiked Flaming Gauntlets (Weapon) and Rusting Guantlets (Magic Item Hand Slot) being worn at the same time, because by your logic, they are not connected.
Nope. This is where you are missing what I said. I said that two gauntlets can't be worn at the same time, but for a different reason other than the magical item slots.
Of the ways to interpret the rules, yours leads to logical absurdities, and mine leads to non-absurdities.
Except mine doesn't state any of what you said it does.
I'm just saying that you don't wear two sets of gauntlets for common sense reasons (can't wear two of the same thing, just like you can't wield two normal swords in one hand, etc), and to leave the Magic Item Slot rules for when adjudicating interactions between magic items.
How this equates to the "absurdities" you've mentioned, I have no idea.