Yea, I think that's the way to go. I'd up it to the be in line with least restrictive medium armor gauntlets come with, though. Thought being the gauntlets are proably the biggest justification for the armor's penalties in the first place, when it comes to arcane fail chance and check penalty on those uses.
Yea, I think that's the way to go. I'd up it to the be in line with least restrictive medium armor gauntlets come with, though. Thought being the gauntlets are proably the biggest justification for the armor's penalties in the first place, when it comes to arcane fail chance and check penalty on those uses.
Arcane spell failure yes, check penalties no.
The check penalties are primarily from the weight, and the tight strappings that make it hard to move. It's a restriction of movement all over the body. So using the same penalties across the board would be a bit too much. I picked -2 because it's a standard moderate penalty.
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Easiest way to do that would be to put a rider on the Guantlets that says 'Gauntlets add a -2 circumstance penalty on all skill checks that require fine dexterity with the hands, such as Disable Device and Sleight of hand checks'. That would be sufficient for most purposes.
I would be tempted to call it a dex only armor check penalty of -2 or their normal armor check penalty, which ever is worse.
Since all armor medium or heaver (except the breastplate) comes with gauntlets, I would not want people to think that they have to add that penalty to the rest of stuff if they already have medium or heavier armor. Also, this way things that help a call deal with armor check penalties (aka fighter armor training), will help them with gauntlets also.
mdt, I'd buy that, but the weight and such wouldn't be as much an issue for manual dex tasks. Swimming sure, but sitting there picking a lock or someone's pocket, it'd be more the metal oven mits you have on that'd make it hard, I think. But all that's basically quibbling between a -2 and -3.
Happler, not saying it should stack with the rest of the armor, rather applying the least med armor penalties to specific applicable tasks if just wearing the gauntlets. If wearing the whole suit, it's already all factored in.
Heat or Chill metal, make them take it off and waste actions or take damage (not really a whole lot, but still).
I bet that with all of these people wearing spiked gauntlets the rust monster population has skyrocketed!
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I'd buy that, but the weight and such wouldn't be as much an issue for manual dex tasks. Swimming sure, but sitting there picking a lock or someone's pocket, it'd be more the metal oven mits you have on that'd make it hard, I think. But all that's basically quibbling between a -2 and -3.
Per the rules you could also have hide gauntlets (as hide is a medium armor). So instead of big heavy metal, you have boiled and stiffened leather. Weight might not be the problem there, but the stiffness and thickness would be.
Edited too late, so just the FYI:
Happler, not saying it should stack with the rest of the armor, rather applying the least med armor penalties to specific applicable tasks if just wearing the gauntlets. If wearing the whole suit, it's already all factored in.
Cant use a cestus and hold another weapon, but your spiky gloves are 100% legit :)Um, what cestus are you reading, the apg says specifically that you CAN
Well that decides it for me.
Spiked Gloves are 100% Gouda.
If they are for show, then it is just a 'gauntlet'.
If they are for function you are wearing a 'Cestus' and take the good with the bad. Cheeseburgers need not apply.
Yeah.
Question.
Have any of you actually had a problem with this in play?
No because most of my players and I usually just buy a daggers since you can throw those and they can deal slashing damage as well.
Oh no does this mean that daggers are now broken?
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You've actually had a player whose character wore spiked gauntlets at all times?
I know when I wear mine, nobody takes my dice or potato chips at the gaming table. They are hell on keyboards when I type though...
You've actually had a player whose character wore spiked gauntlets at all times?
Yeah, and also the whole armour spike line as well.
Got to the point of silly really, and it wasn't just a one off issue - it became standard cheeze.
I simply took an arbitrary approach and took the nerf bat to them.
You've actually had a player whose character wore spiked gauntlets at all times?I know when I wear mine, nobody takes my dice or potato chips at the gaming table. They are hell on keyboards when I type though...
Wouldn't be a problem if you would stop trying to type with your knuckles.
You've actually had a player whose character wore spiked gauntlets at all times?Yeah, and also the whole armour spike line as well.
Got to the point of silly really, and it wasn't just a one off issue - it became standard cheeze.
I simply took an arbitrary approach and took the nerf bat to them.
Could you extrapolate.
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spiked gauntlets aren't that overpowered. they are no worse than a spell component pouch. both effectively amount to a limited feat for 5 gold.
spiked gauntlets are a partial improved unarmed strike
spell component pouches are a partial eschew materials
a cold weather outfit is a partial endurance you could get for free.
You've actually had a player whose character wore spiked gauntlets at all times?Yeah, and also the whole armour spike line as well.
Got to the point of silly really, and it wasn't just a one off issue - it became standard cheeze.
I simply took an arbitrary approach and took the nerf bat to them.
Yea, I started the thread wondering if there's any practical reason why every npc wouldn't do the same thing.
Got one good argument why any soldier type actually would and should, but none for why anyone else shouldn't, save it's cheese.
Decided to treat them as the armor they are, with an arcane fail chance, and a situational armor penalty, if the wearer isn't already wearing the rest of the suit, so getting those penalties anyway.
One players not characters think in terms of being armed constantly.
Two what is happening that causes such a problem.
You've actually had a player whose character wore spiked gauntlets at all times?Yeah, and also the whole armour spike line as well.
Got to the point of silly really, and it wasn't just a one off issue - it became standard cheeze.
I simply took an arbitrary approach and took the nerf bat to them.
Yea, I started the thread wondering if there's any practical reason why every npc wouldn't do the same thing.
Got one good argument why any soldier type actually would and should, but none for why anyone else shouldn't, save it's cheese.
Decided to treat them as the armor they are, with an arcane fail chance, and a situational armor penalty, if the wearer isn't already wearing the rest of the suit, so getting those penalties anyway.
I'm not sure I follow this logic.
Explain why a spiked gauntlet is superior to a belt of daggers. Keep in mind that you can choose to have a dagger drawn at all times, you can throw daggers, and if you throw your dagger or find yourself disarmed, you can draw a dagger as a free action during any move action that takes you more than ten feet. Also, all classes are proficient with daggers, and you can cast spells with somatic gestures while holding one.
Wouldn't be a problem if you would stop trying to type with your knuckles.You've actually had a player whose character wore spiked gauntlets at all times?I know when I wear mine, nobody takes my dice or potato chips at the gaming table. They are hell on keyboards when I type though...
Good point. I was resorting to a dialing wand.
Explain why a spiked gauntlet is superior to a belt of daggers.
Cleric (or Oracle).
Left hand: Buckler, holding (not wielding) light crossbow.
Right hand: Spiked Gauntlet.
Casting? Use gauntlet hand.
Melee? Use gauntlet hand.
Shooting far from combat? Free action use both hands on crossbow, lose buckler AC bonus.
Shooting in danger? Free action switch crossbow to other hand, shoot one handed at -2 attack, keep buckler AC bonus.
At the end of shooting, free action switch crossbow back (or just let go with right hand) and you're back to threatening and being able to cast.
Alternately, you could use a light shield instead of a buckler, and keep the crossbow in the other hand. Cast spells with shield hand without losing AC, threaten with a shield bash, and other hand shoots the crossbow one handed (at -2). Downside is if you bash, you lose the AC bonus, you may not be proficient, and you can't use both hands on the crossbow, but it has less free-action hand switching which is bound to annoy some uptight DMs.
Thing that has come up a few times for my players.
Archer's turn he fires his bow.
Bad guy's turn, he runs up and attacks.
Rogue's turn, he moves over and attacks bad guy attacking archer.
If archer is wearing spiked gauntlets then he is armed and threatening the squares around him, so the rogue can flank get a +2 bonus to hit and sneak attack.
If the archer has a belt of daggers that doesn't happen.
Said this many times all players should always have spiked gauntlets, the few times I get to play they are always on my list of equipment, unless the character is a monk.
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I simply took an arbitrary approach and took the nerf bat to them.
Why?
Is it so bad that characters always threaten? Would you do the same if everyone started taking Improved Unarmed Strike, or multi-classed into Monk?
Do you want there to be more of a cost? Is it really so much that only a feat or class level is acceptable as a price?
Explain why a spiked gauntlet is superior to a belt of daggers.
Since you wan wield a weapon in a gauntlet, it's not either/or. For any PC or NPC with the extra 5gp for another weapon (which is essentially anything with gear), practially speaking it's foolish not have both.
Archer's turn he fires his bow.
Bad guy's turn, he runs up and attacks.
Rogue's turn, he moves over and attacks bad guy attacking archer.
If archer is wearing spiked gauntlets then he is armed and threatening the squares around him, so the rogue can flank get a +2 bonus to hit and sneak attack.
If the archer has a belt of daggers that doesn't happen.
Said this many times all players should always have spiked gauntlets, the few times I get to play they are always on my list of equipment, unless the character is a monk.
Exactly. Same thing with arcane casters with wands in each hand. Considering such a big deal is made about their somatic hand gestures, paradoxical gauntlets don't matter for that.
... and just as true for NPCs. They all should have them if they have gear, since practically speaking, why wouldn't they? It's a great backup if they're sundered or disarmed, or don't have their main weapon in hand for any reason, guaranteeing they'll always be able to flank, get AOOs, and all the rest, with no downside save a measly couple extra GP.
And maybe that's OK if the world is meant to have them as such standard gear, but not for nothing, in history, song, and story, spiked gauntles aren't as ubiquitous as that.
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The crb says daggers have about a one foot blade. :)
Yeah, but they could also have a half foot one, since the rules do not really distinguish between small and large daggers.
What Gary Gygax and the CRB call "dagger" is mostly a Bowie knife: 1 foot long, S and P damage. I think it was Gygax to say that originally.
You can find plenty of example of smaller medieval daggers.Cant use a cestus and hold another weapon, but your spiky gloves are 100% legit :)Cestus was part of what got me thinking, not for the weapon holding, but for their -2 baby armor check penalty.
Yea, you can say it's a game so can't be totally simulationist on everything, but Pathfinder *is* a simulationist game, so seems should try to be believable where it can.
The reason why people don't wear metal gloves all the time is because they get in the way. Seems the game should model that, like they did with the cestus, and would probably make more sense than having iron gauntlets wear like velvet gloves.
Seems at the least, gauntlets should have an arcane fail chance, and the same skill check penalty as the cestus or the armor they're supposed to go with (not staking if the full armor is worn, of course), since they impede the didgets.
I think that the problem is that in earlier editions gauntlets weren't sold separately from the armor (with the exception of magical gauntlets), so giving them a separate penalty would have required rules on stacking between gauntlets and armor types.