Weapon Focus Unarmed + Grapple CMB

[CE Chef]

Title pretty much says it all. If you have weapon focus on unarmed attack, do you think it would apply to grapple? Seems reasonable, but I'm not entirely sure.

[blackbloodtroll]

Just as weapon focus with a trip weapon applies to the cmb roll to trip, your cmb roll to grapple should include the bonus from weapon focus.

[Ravingdork]

No. Unarmed is considered a "weapon" and you don't add weapon bonuses to grapple checks.

You can, however, take Weapon Focus (grapple) as a feat and that would work (despite grapple technically not being a weapon).

[goodwicki]

I would agree with blackbloodtroll. Under the "Performing a Combat Maneuver" section in the Core Rulebook (p.199), it states that "When you attempt a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicabe to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."

While under the rules specific to grapple it seems to imply that you do not have to use an unarmed attack to make a grapple attempt - "Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a -4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll" (p. 200), I do not believe this would preclude using all relevant bonuses when using an unarmed attack to perform the grapple combat maneuver. Note that you would suffer this -4 penalty on an unarmed attack grapple attempt if your other hand was holding something - weapon, shield, torch, et cetera.

[goodwicki]

And yes, I believe it is possible to attempt a grapple combat maneuver with a weapon by taking the -4 penalty. Holding a blade to someone's throat is an awfully good way to get them to do what you want, as is trapping someone between your own body and your quarterstaff. I'm sure a monk is capable of even more Jackie Chantastic examples of this (though he'd probably use a ladder or some other improvised weapon).

[blackbloodtroll]

Check this out: http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom
With this as an example, we can concur the same with grapple, and that if the weapon being used (unarmed strike) has any bonuses, those bonuses would apply to combat maneuvers using that weapon.

[Talonhawke]

Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver. For example, just because you have a +5 greatsword doesn’t mean it gives you a +5 bonus on dirty trick checks (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 320), and just because you have a +5 dagger doesn’t mean it gives you a +5 bonus on grapple checks. Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot.

Note that after the part i bolded the GM is free to rule different

[blackbloodtroll]

You don't use a dagger to grapple, you use an unarmed strike or natural weapon. If you have a bonus to the weapon being used to grapple, it applies to the combat maneuver check. There is no weapon focus (grapple).

[Talonhawke]

Read the first whole thing I bolded relevnets but is says the other manuevers don't get the bonus unless your GM says so.

[goodwicki]

Thank you for the link, blackbloodtroll.

Personally, I wouldn't consider an unarmed strike "incidental" to a grapple attempt. However, I can see that point of view, given that the grapple rules in the Core Rulebook imply that having Improved Unarmed Strike in no way prevents you from provoking an attack of opportunity from the target of your grapple attempt (otherwise I think it would be listed along with the other abilities that prevent this, as a base class gets it for free at 1st level). I think that in this interpretation, Improved Grapple would be the Weapon Focus (grapple) feat.

Mr. Reynolds obviously feels that any bonuses you might have on an attack with a manufactured weapon wouldn't apply to a grapple attempt. However, I see nothing explicitly stating that you cannot attempt a grapple with a weapon (or without any hands free) while taking the -4 penalty, thus allowing a character wielding a two handed weapon to attempt to grapple an enemy.

[blackbloodtroll]

I understand, and in this case the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver. As such, bonuses should apply, without need for houserules.

[Barry Armstrong]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

There is no weapon focus (grapple).

Actually, there is. Core Rulebook, pg. 136, under the description of Weapon Focus states:

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Mechanically, this would look like:

Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)
Weapon Focus (Grapple)
Weapon Focus (Ray)

[goodwicki]

Barry Armstrong wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

There is no weapon focus (grapple).

Actually, there is. Core Rulebook, pg. 136, under the description of Weapon Focus states:

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Mechanically, this would look like:

Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)
Weapon Focus (Grapple)
Weapon Focus (Ray)

Well that settles that. If the Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) bonus was meant to apply to grapples, you wouldn't be able to take Weapon Focus (Grapple). I'm actually kind of surprised this feat isn't a prerequisite for Improved Grapple.

[blackbloodtroll]

I had no idea. I must say that the fact there is indeed the ability to choose grapple for weapon focus is surprising. Would this be applicable to weapon with the grapple feature? Would weapon focus with a weapon with the grapple feature apply to grapple checks using the weapon?

[DigitalMage]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Would this be applicable to weapon with the grapple feature?

Are there weapons that have a grapple feature? Could you give a reference please?

[Barry Armstrong]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I had no idea. I must say that the fact there is indeed the ability to choose grapple for weapon focus is surprising. Would this be applicable to weapon with the grapple feature? Would weapon focus with a weapon with the grapple feature apply to grapple checks using the weapon?

I would say not. The specific semantics of Weapon Focus limit you here. You gain +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. The feat does not mention anything about gaining a bonus for grapple checks, only attack rolls.

Now, if you had Weapon Focus (Grapple), and used a weapon with the grapple feature, that might be a different story.

[Barry Armstrong]

The only weapon I found within easy reach with the Grapple feature is a Garrote, Adventurer's Armory, pg. 3.

[blackbloodtroll]

In Pathfinder, a grapple check is a combat maneuver check, a type of attack role. Why is grapple an exception to rules concerning combat maneuvers? This sounds like 3.5 thinking leaking over to Pathfinder.

[ayronc]

Barry Armstrong wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I had no idea. I must say that the fact there is indeed the ability to choose grapple for weapon focus is surprising. Would this be applicable to weapon with the grapple feature? Would weapon focus with a weapon with the grapple feature apply to grapple checks using the weapon?

I would say not. The specific semantics of Weapon Focus limit you here. You gain +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. The feat does not mention anything about gaining a bonus for grapple checks, only attack rolls.

Now, if you had Weapon Focus (Grapple), and used a weapon with the grapple feature, that might be a different story.

If the weapon has the Grapple property then any bonuses that would normally apply to attack rolls from that weapon would apply to the CMB roll. i.e. Weapon Focus, Masterwork or Magical Enhancement. This is in line with the ruling for trip weapons and the FAQ entry reported above.

While my monk character would love for Unarmed Strike bonuses to apply to Grapple CMB rolls, the existence of Weapon Focus (Grapple) is a pretty good indicator that this is fanciful dreaming...

[Barry Armstrong]

ayronc wrote:

Barry Armstrong wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I had no idea. I must say that the fact there is indeed the ability to choose grapple for weapon focus is surprising. Would this be applicable to weapon with the grapple feature? Would weapon focus with a weapon with the grapple feature apply to grapple checks using the weapon?

I would say not. The specific semantics of Weapon Focus limit you here. You gain +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. The feat does not mention anything about gaining a bonus for grapple checks, only attack rolls.

Now, if you had Weapon Focus (Grapple), and used a weapon with the grapple feature, that might be a different story.

If the weapon has the Grapple property then any bonuses that would normally apply to attack rolls from that weapon would apply to the CMB roll. i.e. Weapon Focus, Masterwork or Magical Enhancement. This is in line with the ruling for trip weapons and the FAQ entry reported above.

While my monk character would love for Unarmed Strike bonuses to apply to Grapple CMB rolls, the existence of Weapon Focus (Grapple) is a pretty good indicator that this is fanciful dreaming...

As a monk lover, I'd love that too, but it's just not in the cards. Striking someone with your fist in the nose is much different than open-handedly grasping something, pulling it, and joint-locking (or however you flavor your grapple). Hence the different Weapon Foci.

As far as my previous post, consider me corrected by RAW. Core Rulebook, pg. 199, under PERFORMING A COMBAT MANEUVER, states:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, MAKE AN ATTACK ROLL and add CMB in place of normal attack bonus.

So you would indeed get the bonus while using the grapple feature of a weapon if you had Weapon Focus in it.

[blackbloodtroll]

I think the note about grapple in the description of weapon focus is an artifact of 3.5, and should be disregarded. I could be wrong, but it brings everything together nice and neat.

[Trikk]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I think the note about grapple in the description of weapon focus is an artifact of 3.5, and should be disregarded. I could be wrong, but it brings everything together nice and neat.

I think you're plain wrong on this. I'm not giving players Weapon Focus (Unarmed) on their grapple checks any more than I'm giving players Weapon Focus (Lance) on their steal checks or Weapon Focus (Longbow) on grab checks.

Weapons are weapons, sometimes they are used for combat maneuvers but it's not an absolute fact that all combat maneuvers involve weapons.

[Jiggy]

It's amazing how often the confusion about weapons and maneuvers comes up. But it's been settled by Sean K Reynolds already. (Obviously if your home GM wants to tweak things that's fine; I'm just spelling this out for those who want to know how the rules work without alteration.)

First, the Core Rules say that combat maneuver checks are a type of attack roll. I think we're all up to speed on that, yes?

Okay, next is this blog post. There's one main thing I want to point out:

Blog Post wrote:

Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver

Two parts: first, three maneuvers as listed as the only weapon-using maneuvers - other maneuvers don't use weapons. Second, it clarifies that unarmed strikes and natural weapons count as weapons for this purpose - meaning they're not used in maneuvers except for the three listed as using weapons.

The blog post then goes on to link the use of the weapon with the application of weapon-specific attack bonuses (such as Weapon Focus). If the maneuver uses a weapon (Disarm, Sunder, Trip, or Drag/Reposition while using a Trip weapon) you get such bonuses, while if it doesn't then you don't.

So there you go. Aside from houserules, weapons (including unarmed strikes) do not assist a grapple check.

[Hayato Ken]

What Jiggy says applies to most stuff.
Since Ultimate Combat however, its different:

Grapple

Grapple: On a successful critical hit with a weapon of this type, you can grapple the target of the attack. The wielder can then attempt a combat maneuver check to grapple his opponent as a free action. This grapple attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature you are attempting to grapple if that creature is not threatening you. While you grapple the target with a grappling weapon, you can only move or damage the creature on your turn. You are still considered grappled, though you do not have to be adjacent to the creature to continue the grapple. If you move far enough away to be out of the weapon’s reach, you end the grapple with that action. Source: Ultimate Combat.

There are several weapons with this quality:
Garrote
Mancatcher
Kyoketsu Shoge
Kusarigama

Finally, with Greater Whip Mastery, you can also grapple with a whip, applying other stuff to the grapple if you have the feats. Most sense would make improved unarmed strike - improved grapple - chokehold.
It´s kind of feat sensitive though.

Also, you have a weapon focus in whip and since you are grappling with the whip, who can deny you that +1 on the grapple? The whip even is finesseable and you could with weapon finesse use your DEX on the grapple.

The garotte is similar. The oponent needs to be helpless or unaware of you, you grapple with the garotte. Although sneak attack damage doesn´t apply to it, you can use the feat strangler to apply sneak attack to any grapple. Creating room for rogue/ninja grapple builds.

Mancatcher allows grapple maneuver on touch attack.

With the two others im not sure, since its not in the weapon description. Probably its only on a critical hit, what is kind of silly if its only on a 20. In all other cases, i don´t see why weapon focus in the weapon or other boni shouldn´t apply to the grapple, since you actively grapple with the weapon.

What i have to critize is that the feat chains are often too long and demanding. Like why need improved unarmed strike for grappling with a whip? Some things should just be abolished at all, like weapon finesse and dodge. Or made more worthwhile.

[blackbloodtroll]

This is why, whether it is RAW or not, I believe weapon focus(grapple) should not exist. As far as bonuses are concerned, grapple should function just like every other combat maneuver.

[Hayato Ken]

Well, there is some old stuff from D&D that just doesn´t make any sense somehow anymore. And the longer i play this game, the more obvious it becomes for me.

At the same time, this is a personal opinion and everyone is free to houserule her games. The developers seem to have a different opinion.

Besides all of this, i love the game!

[Jiggy]

Hayato Ken wrote:

(Various exceptions)

Yes, any rule has an unspoken "unless a special ability allows you to do otherwise" at the end. Doesn't change what the rule is. :P

[Hayato Ken]

Yeah, i´m exploring the rules myself and just wanted to show it´s possible to grapple with weapons and get some boni on it.

[blackbloodtroll]

All I am saying is, imagine if it works like other combat maneuvers. Now doesn't that make thing simpler? It does to me.

[Jiggy]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

All I am saying is, imagine if it works like other combat maneuvers. Now doesn't that make thing simpler? It does to me.

Personally I don't think having a non-weapon option for Weapon Focus adds that much complexity. On the other hand, this thread exists.

[blackbloodtroll]

How would weapon specialization(grapple) work?

[Jiggy]

It wouldn't, and doesn't exist.

[Trikk]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

All I am saying is, imagine if it works like other combat maneuvers. Now doesn't that make thing simpler? It does to me.

Combat maneuvers don't all work the same way, besides all using CMB instead of AB vs CMD instead of AC. Some are instead of attacks, some are standard actions. Some are performed with weapons, some are not.