Rogues: Cunning Trigger and Sneak Attack

[Abrisene]

If a Rogue uses Talent:Cunning_Trigger to set off a trap, would they be allowed Sneak Attack damage on the attack? As the attack occurs as the result of the Rogue using an action, I'm having difficulty arguing against this.

Please advise.

[Cheapy]

The same logic would mean that if the rogue took out a support of a building, causing it to crash down, all the damage would have his sneak attack applied to it.

[Abrisene]

Cheapy wrote:

The same logic would mean that if the rogue took out a support of a building, causing it to crash down, all the damage would have his sneak attack applied to it.

First, Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.

Second, it is an attack vector granted by a class ability, that is happening as a result of an action on their round.

Third, it has a gold cost requirement from requiring a trap that they have personally constructed.

It seems reasonable that a rogue would get better at timing its use with experience as reflected in increased Sneak Attack damage, so long as targets still qualify for Sneak Attacks i.e., within thirty feet of the Rogue; and denied their Dexterity bonus to AC, which would happen with most targets that remain unaware of the trap.

[Quantum Steve]

A Rogue only gets Sneak Attack when he attacks. Not when he causes something else to attack.

If a Rogue uses a move action to make his Dominated Barbarian attack, does he get sneak attack?

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Unfortunately no. But that sounds like a reasonable new talent to homebrew.

[Abrisene]

Cunning Trigger (Ex)
Benefit: A rogue with this talent can use a swift action to set off any trap within 30 feet that she constructed.

What then is the point of this Talent? What advantage is gained that cannot be done by having the trap use its own trigger?

[Talonhawke]

Its a swift action that could be used to deal extra damage above and beyond a full attack.

[Abrisene]

Talonhawke wrote:

Its a swift action that could be used to deal extra damage above and beyond a full attack.

Um, but that damage would still be done by having the trap use its own trigger and probably earlier; without needing an action, requiring the Rogue to be within the same distance as a ranged Sneak Attack, and having to spend a Talent on it.

Target enters trigger square, activates trap, takes damage;

or

Target enters trigger square, target somehow doesn't activate trap, Rogue salutes trap, target takes damage?

Quote:

The effect of a trap is what happens to those who spring it.

If RAW, the talent would only serve to injure oneself so something is obviously missing.

Again, what advantage does this Talent offer that the trap would not do itself? As neither the Talent description or the section on traps make mention of being able to remove the trigger function of a trap to have it be manual, only upgrade to proximity, it'd still go off.

If Sneak Attack isn't applied, please describe this Talent's use.

[Abrisene]

The only advantage I can fathom, is in using ranged attack traps, and being able to direct them to places other than a trigger square.

Has anyone used this Talent?

Please advise.

[TorresGlitch]

How to get full use out of cunning trigger:

- Have a Caster level of at least 3. - get it from spell casting class or from spell-like ability.
- Have a decent intelligence. (at least +1)
- Have at least 1000gp
- Have your character reach HD3.
- Don't use the house rules of Pathfinder Society. (won't allow any crafting, among other things)
- Have "Craft Wondrous items"
- Have 4 - 8 hours available for crafting with your character.
- Have means of getting in contact with spell casters most days.
- Be any class that don't have any good ways of using the "Swift action". - (all but paladin early game)
- Bonus if Spellcraft is a class skill or/and if you have "skill focus Spellcraft".
- Don't be disallowed to use the magic crafting rules (within reason).

11 requirements and the cost of 2 feats (cunning trigger and craft wondrous items). What do you get?

Greasy splat robe - ejects grease on trigger (can make foes flatfooted)
Dark hat - turns its surrounding darker by 1 step on trigger (can grant concealment)
Altering hat - Alters the bearer into a specific monster upon trigger (will save)
Forgotten hat - Turns the bearer invisible when feeling "left out". Will save (grants invisibility)
Snowflake Necklace - The Necklace turns the humanoid, carrying it, soft hands cold. Making all who are touched by the humanoid effected as attacked by frosty touches, as per the chill touch - spell. Activates when the wearer feels hatred, WIll save. (grants touch properties)
… many more…

Limitations of this rogue talent havn't been discusses much, but self buffs - which are only positive, are disallowed. Ex. "mage armor" or "shield".
Very banned traps: Ex. Color-Spray based traps!
DM reason: "The colors cannot be reproduced by the hands of men" - simply too complex and powerful

Stacking traps into one magic device Trap is allowed, but will be very expensive if they differ from each other.

BTW: earliest level you'll benefit from it is third level (if multi classing + traits, or if starting with a spell-like ability race trait). The core rogue can get this working by level 4.

Any thoughts on this?

[Starbuck_II]

Cheapy wrote:

The same logic would mean that if the rogue took out a support of a building, causing it to crash down, all the damage would have his sneak attack applied to it.

RAW, I'm unsure.

RAI, I think he should.

[Rhatahema]

I agree that you wouldn't add sneak attack damage, on the basis that you don't make an attack roll yourself. An arrow trap, for instance, has a +15 attack bonus, so it attacks independently. Despite triggering it, you're not aiming it, so you can't target a creature's vitals.

I'd guess the intended benefit of this talent is simply that you decide when to trigger your trap. So say you've built a pit trap and want to lure an enemy onto it. Make the trap's trigger timed to go off in one year, so your allies can pass over it at no risk, but activate it as a swift when an enemy stands on it (or ready an action to do so, you can ready a swift).

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd allow it. He's setting off the trap himself, and is effectively aiming it at the enemy (or luring the enemy into the exact right spot, same basic concept). Plus, it's just cool.

Also, thread necro.