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I've got a player that keeps wanting to use Stone Shape as an offensive spell. Meaning he gets next to the Big Bad, then casts stone shape at his feet and either encases him completely in stone or in bars made of stone, by drawing up the stone at the BB's feet. His argument is, it is instantaneous, says any shape, and "No Save."
I have a problem with this. It seems like too low of a spell for that use. I told him at the very least there should be a reflex save, save to jump away, but even that doesn't seem enough. A third level spell could potentially neutralize any NPC.
And I can't very well say that the Big Bad can just try to bash free if he is completely encased in stone several inches thick with zero leverage.
I've disallowed it for the moment, but I don't like bringing the banhammer down without giving a real reason for it.
Anyone else run into this? Suggestions?
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Suggestions?
If he's trying to replicate the effect of a Hold Person spell, but get around having a save to negate, HE's the one bending/breaking the rules. You could at the very least give a save to the NPC. Sure, no save to build a stone prison, but it doesn't mean an NPC is automatically required to stand still while it forms around him.
Your idea to use a save DC for the sole purpose of whether or not the NPC is encased inside the stone sculpt is spot on reasonable. Furthermore, as the GM, you'd be completely in the clear to instead simply say the attempt to encase a non-helpless NPC is simply impossible instead, based on the intention of the spell's uses.
It's your game :)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (soft clay)
EFFECT
Range touch
Target stone or stone object touched, up to 10 cu. ft. + 1 cu. ft./level
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose. While it's possible to make crude coffers, doors, and so forth with stone shape, fine detail isn't possible. There is a 30% chance that any shape including moving parts simply doesn't work.
Looking at the target line, how much stone is the bad guy standing on? If its more than 10+level cubic feet you can rule the spell fails (a problem casting in a natural cave then). If he's standing on cobblestones, the spell only affects one cobblestone. If you're in the middle of the woods he's not standing on stone so the spell can't be cast. Even if you're in a dungeon, there could still be a layer of dirt covering any paving stones, which would muck up the spell.
As to a save, I'd probably allow a reflex save not to be caught in the cage; just because the stone doesn't get a saving throw shouldn't mean the guy standing on top of it won't.
Look at the Wall of Ice spell (sor/wiz 5). It essentially allows the same type of shenanigans, but gives the creature(s) trapped a reflex save to avoid being trapped.
Also look as Soften Earth and Stone (druid 2). Same thing. You can use it offensively, but where the earth/stone doesn't get a save or SR, the creature on top of it does.
I would advise you to do the same. The target of the spell is the stone being shaped after all, not the person being trapped. The stone doesn't get a save or SR, since it is an unattended mundane object the spell was specifically designed to work against. That cannot be said of the BBEG standing on the stone. I would suggest making it a Reflex save.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I've got a player that keeps wanting to use Stone Shape as an offensive spell. Meaning he gets next to the Big Bad, then casts stone shape at his feet and either encases him completely in stone or in bars made of stone, by drawing up the stone at the BB's feet. His argument is, it is instantaneous, says any shape, and "No Save."
I have a problem with this. It seems like too low of a spell for that use. I told him at the very least there should be a reflex save, save to jump away, but even that doesn't seem enough. A third level spell could potentially neutralize any NPC.
And I can't very well say that the Big Bad can just try to bash free if he is completely encased in stone several inches thick with zero leverage.
I've disallowed it for the moment, but I don't like bringing the banhammer down without giving a real reason for it.
Anyone else run into this? Suggestions?
Ah, this reminds me on an old spellcasting assassin I played once who used stone shape to kill sleeping targets. I'd hold a rock near their face, and use stone shape to create a plug blocking their airway-after they suffocate, another casting turns it back into a rock and the target has mysteriously died in their sleep.
I'd be a stickler on the area of effect - 15-30 cubic feet really isn't that much; it sounds a lot bigger than it is. A single 5' cube is 125 cubic feet. He'd be able to encase a human in a layer a couple inches thick, but any Large or larger creature would have at best a paper thin shell.
If you want to be really mean, rule the character must decide on the exact shape at the time of casting, which would make it really hard to design a foe-shaped cavity in the middle of a block of stone with a moving target. What I'm saying is, it's not like the spell is smearing concrete over the target that then hardens; the spell just instantly turns the stone into the new shape.
The spell can be used offensively, but it has limits.
It only affects 10 cu. feet + 1 per caster level. At fifth level, that's only 15 cu. feet. Say you try to make a cage, with 1 cu. inch bars set 6 inches apart. The enemy can still attack through the bars, or can attempt to break the bars (1 inch stone doesn't have too many HP and only 10 hardness), and it has no roof, so the enemy can just climb out).
You get 36 bars. You get 18 ft of fence, or 4-1/2 ft. of cage. Which isn't enough to catch a creature with 5' x 5' space. Since the spell only affects stone (hence the no SR or save) I'd say it can't force a creature to squeeze or otherwise directly harm the creature, which means you can only "catch" tiny creatures (who can just squeeze through the bars) until you hit 6th level and get enough bars to fully surround a 5 ft x 5 ft square.
As the character level's up, the spell becomes better (can form a higher and thicker bars or add a roof), but at higher levels the character probably has other even more deadly options.
Time to introduce your player to the idea that rules application needs to be reasonable. Next time you've got the PCs up against a bad guy in a library, give the bad guy a Strength check to knock a few hundred pounds of bookshelf over onto the PCs. Crush. "Sorry, no save."
Next time they're on a rope bridge that gets cut out from under them, "sorry, no save."
Basically there are lots of edge-condition situations in the rules were a DM has to adjudicate reasonably. This is one of them.
That said, there's nothing wrong with the player asking you. Thinking outside of the box is good. They just need to accept why this particular semi-abuse of the rules isn't going to be allowed at your table.
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Have some battles away from stone. If your players are known for their deeds, the enemies in the know should adapt to have countermeasures. Do not punish creativity, or give the impression of doing so. This leads to characters who lazily "hit it with my sword" and "hit with my magic" while yawning and texting. Inspire him to use different tactics and let his creative spell use be a sometimes useful tool, not a always or never useful tactic.
It's not intended as an offensicve spell and it's not balanced as an offensive spell. I'd rule that the stone takes a few seconds to assume its new shape, so cannot be used offensively except against helpless opponents.
