Ghost Touch Amulet of Mighty Fists

[Michael Loy]

Having recently been forced to flee a fairly unpleasant fight with an incorporeal outsider-thing, my druid/monk sits down and spends two and a half days fast-crafting a +0 ghost touch amulet of mighty fists, in order to be ready for a second go at that fight.

So that's good. But I'm seeing some possibly-odd corners of the rules in this. I've mentioned it to my DM, but might as well ask here.

Ghost touch:

Quote:

A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.

It's those last few lines that are interesting. Check my logic:

• Wearing the amulet basically make my body ghost touch, yeah? So I count as corporeal and incorporeal, both.

• If so, that should mean that a ghost and I interact normally, basically as if we were both corporeal. It can grapple, bull rush, make normal attacks (beyond incorporeal touch attacks), all that, and I can do the same to it.

( The above matters particularly for this upcoming encounter, since "incorporeal outsider-thing" can flip back and forth between corporeal and incorporeal, and it has attacks and abilities that only work while it's corporeal. Probably it can use those attacks on me regardless, while I'm wearing the amulet? )

( On the other hand, being able to grapple incorporeal creatures could be handy for me. )

• And this seems sketchy, but would I gain my natural armor bonus (from wild shape or whatever) against incorporeal attacks? If the ghost touch starts at my skin/scales/etc, that seems logical, but ... I dunno.

[NeverNever]

You're over-thinking this. All the amulet of mighty fists does is grant your natural weapons/unarmed attacks the properties of the amulet.

In this case you count your natural weapons as having the ghost touch property.

It doesn't do anything above and beyond this.

[Michael Loy]

Well, yes. But I quoted the ghost touch property up there. I'll do it again:

Quote:

The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.

That's what the ghost touch property does. I'm looking at the ramifications of that.

Are we niggling that some parts of my body aren't natural attacks? At the very least, I can explicitly do unarmed strikes with "fist, elbows, knees, and feet", and there's that generally understood thing where a monk can make an unarmed strike with any part of his body. At any rate, I'm pretty sure it's fair to include other attacks, headbutts and such, and we must add in any new limbs/attacks I acquire through wild shape.

So even if, say, my calves and sternum are not ghost touch, it still seems like enough of my body is that an incorporeal creature should be able to attack me, bull rush me, whatever. Likewise, if I wild shape into a lion or octopus, my tentacle/claw attack is ghost touch and would allow me to use the associated grab special ability on an incorporeal creature, yes?

You can use a ghost touch chain to trip a ghost (well, they typically fly, but whatever), a ghost touch mancatcher to grapple one, all that. And a ghost can use the disarm maneuver to relieve you of a ghost touch weapon, or it can presumably sunder a ghost touch weapon. When the ghost touch weapons are part of my body, how does that translate?

( The thing about getting natural armor against incorporeal touch attacks probably is reading too much into it, but I just thought I'd toss it out there anyway. As I said, it sounds sketchy. )

[Dennis Baker]

It likely depends on who your GM is. Personally, I'd allow a character to grapple/ bullrush the ghost but would probably not make the entire character both corporeal and incorporeal (ghost touchable) unless you are actively grappling a creature.

I guess it depends. If you have an amulet of mighty fists — Flaming, most people don't claim your entire body is flaming that would make it awkward when people use touch spells on you.

[NeverNever]

If you want to read more into it than that, then there isn't a official answer, but I would bare in mind there is ghost touch armour as well, so try not to over-ride it's purpose.

I'd agree with Dennis in that allowing CMs seems perfectly fair considering the source, but I wouldn't have it do anything advantageous beyond that.

[Michael Loy]

Honestly, I'm looking more at the negative effects. It seems clear that ghost touch would let me make my tentacle (grab) attacks, and similar. The tentacle, at least, is ghost touch, so there you go. It might be less clear if I was just doing a normal grapple attempt, rather than a grab. But I'm a druid, so I'll pretty much always be using grab.

The fuzzier bits are, you know, can the ghost grapple me? Can it make natural attacks on me while incorporeal? Because this specific thing is a giant damn snake monster with like six heads and six poisonous bite attacks. When it's corporeal, it's vicious. Am I making it so that it can attack me like that even while incorporeal?

Mind, I've already kicked it to the GM, and her word is what I really care about. I think we'll end up just saying to treat it like I can touch ghosts freely, and vice versa, so that yes: the incorporeal snake monster can full attack me, kill me, and then wield my body as a bludgeoning weapons against my allies. Which is fine. (c:

But it's not really clearly addressed by the rules, so here I am in case someone can point me at something official. It's a deep corner case, so I assume not, but hey.

[Interzone]

As far as I see it:
YOU are corporeal (unless you are under some sort of spell effect.
Your ATTACKS are corporeal or incorporeal. The fact that you are using parts of your body to attack doesn't make your body incorporeal, just the attacks you are making with it...
I figure if the DM wants to say "OK it is bullrushing your incorporeal bits" you can say "OK, that would be my fist/knee etc take a bunch of damage"
I mean it would be like "I want to bullrush a dude by pushing really hard on the sharp end of his sword"

As far as combat maneuvers: I would say any CM that you can do in the place of an attack (disarm/trip/etc) would work, but any one that requires a separate standard action would not...
My logic is that it should only be as powerful as if someone had, for instance, a ghost touch Dagger. If they don't get to use it to grapple an incorporeal creature, then you shouldn't be able to do it with incorporeal fists either.

And like another poster said, remember that there is ghost touch armor too for the defensive aspects.

Ok this is probably a scattered and vague post, im kinda distracted, but yeah that is my opinion......

[Mike Schneider]

Ghost nookie.

[Dennis Baker]

Michael Loy wrote:

Mind, I've already kicked it to the GM, and her word is what I really care about. I think we'll end up just saying to treat it like I can touch ghosts freely, and vice versa, so that yes: the incorporeal snake monster can full attack me, kill me, and then wield my body as a bludgeoning weapons against my allies. Which is fine. (c:

But it's not really clearly addressed by the rules, so here I am in case someone can point me at something official. It's a deep corner case, so I assume not, but hey.

Sounds to me like you have a good grasp of the situation and you are working with your GM. I suspect the reason it's not really addressed is the overwhelming majority of incorporeal creatures aren't much interested in grappling so it's generally not an issue.

[NeverNever]

Mike Schneider wrote:

Ghost nookie.

I'm fairly certain THAT doesn't count as a weapon.

[Talonhawke]

NeverNever wrote:

Mike Schneider wrote:

Ghost nookie.

I'm fairly certain THAT doesn't count as a weapon.

At the risk of being deleted

might be more than pg-13:

He is a monk and it states every part of his body is a weapon.

[NeverNever]

Dear god this is one rule debate I think even I shall just back down from gracefully.

[Heaven's Agent]

Talonhawke wrote:

At the risk of being deleted

You have now inspired a sect of the Urgathoan faith composed entirely of wondrous item-crafting monks. Congratulations.

[Bobson]

Interzone wrote:

As far as I see it:

YOU are corporeal (unless you are under some sort of spell effect.
Your ATTACKS are corporeal or incorporeal. The fact that you are using parts of your body to attack doesn't make your body incorporeal, just the attacks you are making with it...
I figure if the DM wants to say "OK it is bullrushing your incorporeal bits" you can say "OK, that would be my fist/knee etc take a bunch of damage"
I mean it would be like "I want to bullrush a dude by pushing really hard on the sharp end of his sword"

As far as combat maneuvers: I would say any CM that you can do in the place of an attack (disarm/trip/etc) would work, but any one that requires a separate standard action would not...
My logic is that it should only be as powerful as if someone had, for instance, a ghost touch Dagger. If they don't get to use it to grapple an incorporeal creature, then you shouldn't be able to do it with incorporeal fists either.

And like another poster said, remember that there is ghost touch armor too for the defensive aspects.

Ok this is probably a scattered and vague post, im kinda distracted, but yeah that is my opinion......

The way I usually explain it, is that the AoMF (and anything else that does special things to an unarmed strike, including monk damage) only triggers on an unarmed strike. You have to have your bodypart moving forcefully enough that it has an actual impact, and probably has to have your will/energy/force/ki behind it as well. Think of it as your fists bursting into flames as you swing them, then extinguishing after impact (flaming), or fading into transparency while in motion (ghost touch). This does mean you could use them to do combat maneuvers, and that the ghost can't do combat maneuvers to you (except possibly as an AoO provoked by your own maneuver).

[Quantum Steve]

Bobson wrote:

This does mean you could use them to do combat maneuvers, and that the ghost can't do combat maneuvers to you (except possibly as an AoO provoked by your own maneuver).

You don't grapple with your fist any more than you grapple with a sword. Weapon Focus (Unarmed Attack) doesn't add to a grapple unless you have grab.

I suppose you could Sunder, Trip, or Disarm a ghost, although I don't know what that would accomplish.

[OneSoulLegion]

As a slight addendum, unless the mighty fist amulet creation rules has specific exceptions, you cannot craft a +0 "weapon" with an ability - you need to make it +1 before you can add an ability like ghost touch.

I'd think it applies to the Amulet of Mighty Fists just like it applies to magical weapons and armour, but I'd be willing to listen to opposing arguments. =)

[OneSoulLegion]

Talonhawke wrote:

At the risk of being deleted

** spoiler omitted **

That's not how you wear a Cestus.

[Dennis Baker]

OneSoulLegion wrote:

As a slight addendum, unless the mighty fist amulet creation rules has specific exceptions, you cannot craft a +0 "weapon" with an ability - you need to make it +1 before you can add an ability like ghost touch.

I'd think it applies to the Amulet of Mighty Fists just like it applies to magical weapons and armour, but I'd be willing to listen to opposing arguments. =)

No need to argue, find your book and read the item description, it's pretty straight forward (hint it's changed since 3.5 and you are wrong).

[OneSoulLegion]

Dennis Baker wrote:

No need to argue, find your book and read the item description, it's pretty straight forward (hint it's changed since 3.5 and you are wrong).

Ah yes...

PRD wrote:

An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.

That'll teach me to not check the PRD first when posting away from home... =)

[Dennis Baker]

Quantum Steve wrote:

You don't grapple with your fist any more than you grapple with a sword. Weapon Focus (Unarmed Attack) doesn't add to a grapple unless you have grab.

I suppose you could Sunder, Trip, or Disarm a ghost, although I don't know what that would accomplish.

This is more or less the point the original poster was making. Unarmed strike is not limited to your fist. Whether WF would apply or not is irrelevant.

I'm not sure it matters much one way or the other though because people rarely want to grapple an incorporeal thing, it's usually about the worst thing you could do.

[MLHagan]

Michael Loy wrote:

The fuzzier bits are, you know, can the ghost grapple me? Can it make natural attacks on me while incorporeal? Because this specific thing is a giant damn snake monster with like six heads and six poisonous bite attacks. When it's corporeal, it's vicious. Am I making it so that it can attack me like that even while incorporeal?

Yea, GM call trumps all, but that being said this is the way i see it

a ghost can use a ghost touch sword for instance, they can touch the handle, cross guard and blade. the entire weapon is ghost touch and not just the dangerous bits. this is also true with flaming weapons for instance, yea the blade is engulfed in flames however even a hit from the hilt or pummeling someone with that sword would delever the extra damage.

so the ghost with a ghost touch sword can touch any part of the sword, they can even atempt to sunder or damage any part of that sword. the same would be true with a pc using an amulet of mighty fist, even there handles or love handles would be ghost touch. so yea, the player could grapple a ghost however every part of that player would be subject to "physical" attacks from a ghost.

think about a ghost that is also a monk, facing a player with a ghost touch amulet of the fists that ghost would also be able to use it's flury of blows against any part of the player. ghost touch works both ways, not only can a ghost be damaged by a ghost touch weapon but they could also damage that weapon.

that being said, lets take it one step further. a ghost wearing ghost touch armour can also have that armour grappled or be affected by some attacks through that armor. think of a ghost wearing chainmail and getting hit by a monks fist for instance. sure the fist cant touch the ghost but it can the armor and the armor can affect the ghost as much as it protects the ghost.

so that ghost that is also a monk could also wear a ghost touch amulet of the fist and inturn be able to use its flurry of blows against any normal target however the reverse would also be ture, even a normal sword used against that ghost touched ghost would delever full damage as if the sword was ghost touch itself. in effect the ghost that is also a monk would be concidered both corporeal and incorporeal while wearing said amulet of the fist.

kind of a strange twist on things i know, but thats the trade off for using an amulet of mighty fists with a ghost touch ability. either corporeal or incorporeal creature using such would be able to cause and recive damage from the other as if they where both corporeal and or incorporeal.

so i would say yes, using a ghost touch amulet of the mighty fist by either a corporeal or incorporeal creature would also allow for grapple attempts or any other relevent combat manuiver. it would also allow the use of touch attack spells both ways as well for that matter as either would be able to touch the other.

its a preaty steap trade off, but thats the game balance of such items, it works both ways so use at your own risk.

[Morganknight]

MLHagan wrote:

Michael Loy wrote:

The fuzzier bits are, you know, can the ghost grapple me? Can it make natural attacks on me while incorporeal? Because this specific thing is a giant damn snake monster with like six heads and six poisonous bite attacks. When it's corporeal, it's vicious. Am I making it so that it can attack me like that even while incorporeal?

Yea, GM call trumps all, but that being said this is the way i see it

a ghost can use a ghost touch sword for instance, they can touch the handle, cross guard and blade. the entire weapon is ghost touch and not just the dangerous bits. this is also true with flaming weapons for instance, yea the blade is engulfed in flames however even a hit from the hilt or pummeling someone with that sword would delever the extra damage.

so the ghost with a ghost touch sword can touch any part of the sword, they can even atempt to sunder or damage any part of that sword. the same would be true with a pc using an amulet of mighty fist, even there handles or love handles would be ghost touch. so yea, the player could grapple a ghost however every part of that player would be subject to "physical" attacks from a ghost.

think about a ghost that is also a monk, facing a player with a ghost touch amulet of the fists that ghost would also be able to use it's flury of blows against any part of the player. ghost touch works both ways, not only can a ghost be damaged by a ghost touch weapon but they could also damage that weapon.

that being said, lets take it one step further. a ghost wearing ghost touch armour can also have that armour grappled or be affected by some attacks through that armor. think of a ghost wearing chainmail and getting hit by a monks fist for instance. sure the fist cant touch the ghost but it can the armor and the armor can affect the ghost as much as it protects the ghost.

so that ghost that is also a monk could also wear a ghost touch amulet of the fist and inturn be able to use its flurry of blows against any...

But, could I then use my +1 Ghost Touch Rope to tie it up once I have it grappled?

[Trevyn]

I've just made a ghost touch jar to stuff ghosts into when I grapple them. Go Tetori Monk!