New classes in LoF?

[LordClammy]

Hey everyone,

How do the new classes (apg on) hold upin the LOF? Do any potentially break the module? Just curious as we may be running it soon.

Thanks
Clam

[Dire Mongoose]

I don't recommend allowing summoner -- LoF skews dungeon heavy, it skews melee enemy heavy, and it skews light on enemies with DR. This means that your typical eidolon (big, high damage, high AC, terrible saves) can spend an awful lot of the AP essentially soloing half the encounters. That is to say, there are a lot of encounters that can only physically attack the eidolon, can't realistically get to any other party member if the summoner is smart, and need to roll a nat 20 to hit the eidolon while it's pouring massive damage out.

To be clear, I think summoner in general is a little (not a lot) too good -- probably it either should have less built in AC or the summoner shouldn't have mage armor and shield it can cast on the eidolon, and that would neatly fix every general problem I've seen -- but LoF's setup really highlights its strengths and avoids its weaknesses.

[LordClammy]

Thanks for the reply.

We have a summoner in another game and it is gross. Only big baddies really hurt it.

[Olwen]

Paladins can be quite powerful in this campaign given the number of outsiders (genies…). I'm not sure that justifies banning them, but you should be aware of the problem and maybe ready to increase the hps of outsider bosses on the spot if they prove too weak to survive the first round of a paladin's smite evil.

[DukeRuckley]

Alchemists break the first module. The whole purpose of Pugwampi's is that they force you to miss more often than normal, but even if an Alchemist misses with a bomb, it hits a square adjacent to the enemy, and the minimum damage of a bomb still kills a Pugwampi.

Beyond the first module, they are probably fine though.

[Gorbacz]

DukeRuckley wrote:

Alchemists break the first module. The whole purpose of Pugwampi's is that they force you to miss more often than normal, but even if an Alchemist misses with a bomb, it hits a square adjacent to the enemy, and the minimum damage of a bomb still kills a Pugwampi.

Beyond the first module, they are probably fine though.

That's only if the Alchemist has INT 20, and if the Pugwampi fails the Ref save. And it doesn't kill them, but leaves staggered at 0 hp.

[MRick]

I plan on running this AP as soon as it is available in French. (more info about that here : http://www.black-book-editions.fr/index.php?site_id=159 )

One of my players wants to play an Inquisitor of Iomedae (Gnoll Killer from Solku), and another one want to play a Witch.

I think this will be fine, but if anyone knows about a potential problem, let me know.

I'm still waiting to know which kind of patron the witch will choose, maybe I can tie her with Shazathared or Nefeshty ? (especially if she chooses Agility, Elements or Water)
What do you think about that, may a Genie grant witchcraft to a 1st level character by using a wish ?

[Purple Dragon Knight]

I tried running a few 3.5 APs with the Pathfinder rules, and it sucks. Call me lazy, but the point of buying a published mod is to run it as is, not spending time updating stat blocks.

[Akumamajin]

I GM the whole thing under the pathfinder rules and it quite works. Granted, I have done some extensive expansions, but that is, because I like sideplots and character stuff. Oh, and I have 6 players, so naturally I needed to buff up the resistance a tad bit. One hotfix that generally works just fine is giving the enemies max hp and adding one or two general guys to the encounters.

I don't like the argument, that bought modules should be played like written. What I like most is, that I get a really cool adventure idea (just look at 'Carnival of Tears' or 'Crucible of Chaos' or 'Carrion Hill') with a cool story and many good, fleshed out adversaries. But half the fun comes from the little tweaks: making this NPC into one of the recurring enemies of your campaign, adding that certain magic item into the stuff or just stringing the isolated modul into your campaign in such a way, that everyone things you had this planed all along.

After the liberation of Kelmerane we did three or four sidetrack adventures to fill up the one year time jump before House of the Beast starts, and so far my players are still thinking that it all is part of the main plot. So what is the point, if I don't play the adventures by the book? Well, most of the written stuff I can use just as written, adding one or two more gnolls and maxing their HPs hardly is any work, and because I know the entire plot till Level 15/16 I can already hint and foreshadow stuff.

So, for most parts, the similarities between the 3.5 and 3.75 stuff are rather minor and I think it is possible to adjust on the fly without too much a hassle, if you want to play by the book.

[DM Dan E]

My PBM is mid-way through the 2nd book.

Mechanically I think most new classes would work fine although I don't allow summoners.

An alchemist makes the pugawampis pretty easy and should have plenty of fodder to target with his aoe bombs, but notably many of the major threats in book 1 are fire resistant. I warned the alchemist I had in the game at the time of this. Thats easily fixed through discoveries though.

I'd say a non-small cavalier is the most unsuited. A medium size mount will have issues for parts of book 1 (the most interesting parts), all of book 2, much of book 3, all of 5....

I don't think too many builds (ignoring summoners) obviate major challenges though. Theres a pretty good mix of baddies although a bit of a melee focus as above (although as you get later and later many melee baddies also fly). A cold focused damage dealer will do well though that is pretty meta, many enemies are vulnerable to cold.

[catmandrake]

I would recommend against gunslingers. There are significant sections of Legacy of Fire during which the PCs are cut off from shopping opportunities, particularly Parts 4 and 5. A gunslinger is likely to run out of bullets and black powder--or the supplies to make them--during these sections.

Moreover, black powder explodes when exposed to fire, and the PCs will definitely be exposed to fire in this AP.

Also consider the prevalence of environmental heat in Legacy of Fire. Cavaliers, summoners, witches, and any other characters that have an additional creature as one of their class features have to expend twice as much effort to proof themselves against the heat. Otherwise their animal companions, eidolons, or familiars will pass out from heatstroke or burn to death. Its not worth completely disallowing these classes over, but the GM and the players need to keep this factor in mind.

And to add another reason to avoid summoners:

Spoiler:

The fact that Kakishon is cut off from the other planes and very difficult to leave makes the summoner's ability to call and dismiss his eidolon, a specific extraplanar outsider, very problematic.

Finally, a note on witches, specifically the Slumber Hex: Legacy of Fire seems to have a lower proportion of undead and other enemies that are immune to mind-affecting in general or sleep specifically. The witch's Slumber Hex can be used to great effect throughout this AP, even more so than in other campaigns. Not something to prohibit witches over, but something to keep in mind.

[MRick]

That's good for me as I allow only classes from Core Rulebook + APG except Summoner. No Summoner, no Gunslinger, no Ninja, no Samouraï.
I will allow the core races plus Ifrit, Oread, Sylph and Undine from Bestiary 2.

The witch is probably advantaged if she takes the Slumber Hex, but with so much heat, she will have to spend much ressources on protecting her familiar. That's balanced in a way.

If one wants to play a Camel or Horse Rider, I'll give a warning.

What do you think about Shazathared or Nefeshty as Witch patrons ? Is that a good idea, or should a Witch patron stay unknown at the end of the AP ?

[DM Dan E]

You could work either in although both are just powerful genies as presented. Nefeshti starting a new type of Templar is interesting. Darker options are powerful div (these get presented but unfortunately not really used) or maybe even Ymeri or another elemental lord meddling in things.

You generally want to find a plot friendly way to encourage characters to activate the scroll so might help to create a tie there.

Not mentioning the efreet right up to the point the party first encounter him is helpful to I think.

[Akumamajin]

As a sidetrack adventure I used the gamemastery module "Entombed with the Pharao" during which the PCs fight through a pyramid, where four ancient pharaohs are entombed, each one associated with one of the elements. One of my PCs wanted to multiclass into the witch, so I used one of the Pharaohs as the patron.

Works reasonably well and it is lots of fun :)

[notabot]

I've been running LoF for a rather large group over the last few months. We have between 7-9 players, with 5 "core" classes among them. Druid, bard, fighter, monk, sorcerer. Rest of part is witch, inquisitor, oracle, ninja.

The core players use archetypes, other than the druid, and the sorcerer uses one of the non core blood lines.

I've found even with a double sized party at the recommended level (story based award to keep them correct level) this adventure path is very hard. Combat is short and brutal. Also many of the enemies just have good saves, ways of avoiding tank and spank, and can dish out 1-2 round PC killing attacks. Even with a witch, debuff bard, debuff oracle, and summon druid only 1 boss fight has been a cake walk (Carrion King, got locked down by summon natures ally and debuffs).

The most powerful character so far has been the druid. She actually uses charm animal, which is very good in the first module. Later on she has been summoning quite a bit (superior summoning, augment summon). I've allowed bestiary 2 elementals to be summoned, and the ice elemental and mud elemental has been very powerful. Even with the nerfed summons in module 4, she has been powerful. Add in her cat and her own self buffed combat form and she can solo anything but the boss battles up until module 5.

Although I don't have any summoners in my party, last campaign I had 2, and they really weren't that bad. A regular summoner isn't any more offensive (in power level) than a druid. The synthisist build is not very powerful in LoF IMHO, unless the go for full tank build their eidolon can be one shotted away by many of the things in this campaign.

So basically in my experience allowing full access to pathfinder material won't make things too easy, My party has needed pretty much all the power they have as it is (of course I play the monsters pretty hard, and I don't pull punches except when the adventure notes give specific tactics). Only 1 dead PC so far (eaten in module one), but many neg HPs, with 3 being down to neg con +1. Last session came really close to a TPK (Last battle in module 4, the enemies have huge environmental advantage and massive damage potential)

[Deadmanwalking]

Speaking as someone who ran the first two chapters with an Inquisitor and Oracle in the group, they worked fine.

Alchemist shouldn't be a huge problem, as the Pugwampis get a Save vs. splash damage and, as mentioned, he's maybe killing what, maybe one every two rounds? And that's if they don't get creative (and rule-bending) and hold an action to blow a bomb up in his hand with Shatter. As a side-note, Father Zastoran makes far more sense as a healing-focused Alchemist than a Cleric, and should likely be changed to such.

Witch shouldn't be any more of a problem in this AP than any other. And I'm a bit skeptical about the Summoner being unbalanced, too.

Really, anything should work.