We've seen a few rules threads come out of that discussion about some notorious barbarian that frequents these parts. This is one I can see being relevant to any games with mounts.
A druid with a horse mount enters a room. At the other end of the otherwise empty room is an archer about 100 ft. away. The horse rolls a 10 on his perception check for a total of 16, easily beating the "see a visible creature" from 100 ft. away DC of 10. The druid, however, rolls a 1 and his Perception check is only +1 so with his 2 he fails to see the archer.
Can the druid and mount still charge the foe? If not, what if the druid cast Speak With Animals before entering the room? Could the horse then say "There's an archer over there and we can to charge him together!"
edit: This is the relevant line from Charge:
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
We've seen a few rules threads come out of that discussion about some notorious barbarian that frequents these parts. This is one I can see being relevant to any games with mounts.
A druid with a horse mount enters a room. At the other end of the otherwise empty room is an archer about 100 ft. away. The horse rolls a 10 on his perception check for a total of 16, easily beating the "see a visible creature" from 100 ft. away DC of 10. The druid, however, rolls a 1 and his Perception check is only +1 so with his 2 he fails to see the archer.
Can the druid and mount still charge the foe? If not, what if the druid cast Speak With Animals before entering the room? Could the horse then say "There's an archer over there and we can to charge him together!"
edit: This is the relevant line from Charge:
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
I believe the speak with animals option is the best, then you could understand your animal.
I believe one other option would be to make a "trick" for the animal companion called "Nod towards viable enemies"?
Here is one problem though: Do you allow your animal companion to attack anyone it sees as soon as it enters a room? or does it have to wait for your command to attack. In which case, why does it matter that it saw a person, if you cannot direct it towards that person?
For the sake of discussion, let's assume the animal is trained to attack on sight.
What Trinam said. Additionally, let's assume we all know there is little difference between your average low level rider/mount charging together and just the mount charging and the rider taking an attack at the end. This is more about whether it's possible for both to be charging at the same time if only one sees the enemy.
There are a number of effects a rider can get that only matter if the rider is officially charging
Hm, my brother found an actual developer ruling defining line of sight. Of course, it isn't official FAQ or anything because they seemed to find it distasteful to have to even weigh in on the issue. If we accept the ruling that to charge you must have line of sight and line of sight requires you to actually see your target, it seems like this is a clear issue, no? A mount could charge, the rider would take an AC penalty and get a +2 to his single attack he could make at the end (as per mounted combat rules), but no other effect.
Is this the proper reading?
It seems to me that in theory, a mount could charge the invisible creature and make its attacks, and the rider could then attack the same square with all the bonuses and penalties associated. However, this requires the mount to either communicate to its rider that there is an invisible creature and receive orders to attack from the rider, or decide to attack the creature without orders. For an intelligent mount this is fine, but for an animal mount (which should not be able to determine whether a stranger is friend or foe) unless it is in the habit of attacking every creature it sees it would not be able to do this.
In the case of the druid and his horse, since the horse has no way of telling the druid that someone is there ('stamping twice on the ground and pointing its nose' whenever it sees a person would get pretty annoying when you walked into a village) and is likely not in the habit of charging everything it sees, I would say there would be no charge attack. If he cast speak with animal beforehand, then it would be fine.
Mounts do not take actions on their own, even if they have tricks. Which is good, because...
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
If you don't take the free action to direct your mount to attack, then you are not attacking with it (since you didn't make the check to get the benefit, and it's not your turn so you can't make free actions other than talking). So if you walk into a room and your mount takes off to attack the first thing it sees, even IF this worked you wouldn't be charging and attacking with it. When it got to your turn, you would already be adjacent to the creature.
All that said, it is my understanding that a mount works on your direction only, and acts during your round in combat. Even if it has tricks, once you get on it's back... it is waiting for orders on what to do.
Having speak with animals might work and it could just tell you it sees someone then you can decide to charge on your turn. I hope you aren't counting on your mount to not be fooled by things like illusions and what not... I mean, if you were is some sort of weird challenge where both sides were likely to one-shot the other, it could mean death if you were relying on your mount to be the one to see things for you.
Sean
As a DM, I have come across many encounters where the "first thing you see" might be innocent. Seems to me that your mount should only attack as you direct it. It is not smart enough to tell the intentions of every person on the other side of every door.
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Why did the druid have to roll on his perception. If he was just walking into the room, not under any particularly adverse conditions it should be assumed that his character is using his average perception.
As far as a different situation woudl go, no a mount cannot charge a creature that his rider is not aware of. The rider must direct the charge.
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate
danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of
rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if
you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes
them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such
as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In
most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know
(or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a
poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll
(a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a
particularly high roll wouldn’t help.
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I'm wondering why you'd ride your horse into a room. Don't most people leave their mounts outside when they come in?
Does this druid regularly remain mounted even when he enters the tavern each evening? If so, would the horse charge and attack the first tavern patron it saw that looked hostile? I would hope not, and thus I would suspect that it can't charge this archer without the druid's explicit command to do so.
I might allow the druid a Handle Animal or Sense Motive check to intuit that the horse had spotted the archer, followed by a second Perception check with a circumstance bonus, but that's about it.
People are making a lot of assumptions in this thread that are not at all relevant to the question posed in the original post.
For example, people are assuming an unintelligent/animal mount. Why is this a poor assumption? Because not all mounts are unintelligent or animals. An example is the iconic dragon rider. Dragons are at least as smart as the people riding them in most cases--and not particularly docile or submissive.
My bad. When he said horse, I imagined a 2 intelligence horse. I guess he could be buffing the horse and choosing intelligence as it's main stat to increase every 4th level...
still... without the attack trick, I wouldn't allow the animal companion to just decide who enemies are willy nilly. That's what dogs do before they get put to sleep for ripping innocent peoples faces off.
An intelligent mount that doesn't do what you tell it to isn't very useful as a mount. I think a player would get tired rather quickly of a mount that doesn't wait for instructions and just does whatever the DM wants it to.
Unless you enjoy not having control of you mount, one can assume mounts acting of their own accord are the exception, not the rule.
An intelligent mount that doesn't do what you tell it to isn't very useful as a mount. I think a player would get tired rather quickly of a mount that doesn't wait for instructions and just does whatever the DM wants it to.More assumptions that don't serve to answer the question at hand. What if you tell the mount to charge the first guy he sees with a drawn bow that isn't a known friend, for example?
Well, that would be an exception, wouldn't it? Unless you assume that most characters with mounts have a similar standing command.
Also, expect that to get you into trouble eventually as your mount constantly charges everyone with a bow he doesn't recognize. Including illusions or obvious (to you) traps.
Also, hope that your mount doesn't go before you, because if he's not waiting for your orders, he'll just run over there, before you can even act, and then you stuck on a mount with no actions left.
Also, if your mount can charge an archer with a bow, in this situation, can he charge one with a sling, or an arquebus, or a crossbow?
I think you're making more assumptions than anyone else.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I guess the bigger question is whether you can even act.
Assume for a moment
Everyone rolls initiative, order is Rider/ Horse, Archer
For the moment, we'll assume the mount wants to charge.
---SURPRISE ROUND---
Rider/ Horse wins initiative and the horse charges across the room....
... rider is still flat footed until the beginning of normal combat. Whether his horse is trained to charge on sight or not is irrelevant because the rider isn't ready to attack.
Archer fires and hits the rider.
---NORMAL COMBAT BEGINS---
Rider is finally clued in about the archer and attacks...
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Personally, I wouldn't allow a player to 'train' a normal horse/ dog to charge without an explicit command, even if it has an intelligence of 3. If it's an intelligent mount, I would assume it does what makes the most sense to it.
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* Edit: I know, a 'rider' in the dungeon is more likely to be a halfling on a riding dog but work with me here
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If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
This could be the real determiner. No line of sight = no charge but...
Mounted Combat
These rules cover being mounted on a horse in combat but can also be applied to more unusual steeds, such as a griffon or dragon.
Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds. Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat. If you don't dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a mount. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full-round action, and you can't do anything else until your next turn.
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.
Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.
...so...
There it is in the section I bolded. If your mount charges you don't need to because you receive the benefits & penalties of charging anyway.
Now this only works if you gave your mount the attack command or your mount is smart enough to initiate charges against enemies you don't see.
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There is no sticky part.
Basic rule is you cannot charge if you do not have line of sight.
But if your mount charges then you are NOT charging but still get the effects of charging.
Now there are situations where it gets sticky but those are mostly ones that would make regular attacks problematic. e.g. mount can see invisible but you cannot.